S2E4 — Ethics, Human Debt™ & Organisational Responsibility (with Prof. Dr. Kevin Jones)
Hello and welcome back to a new episode of People and Tech. Today we're speaking to Doctor. Kevin Jones, who is the director of the Center for Teaching and Learning of the Indiana University in Columbus. Not only that, but he holds a number of other incredibly impressive positions that have to do with the study of ethics, of management, and that of humanity in different aspects. Go ahead and find out more about Doctor.
Duena:Jones's career on LinkedIn, and obviously listen to his words here. I think you'll find him as fascinating as Dave and I have, and I think you'll learn a lot from this conversation. Come back next week to hear from yet another great mind in the space, as we tackle the notion of what is human death and what is it that us as humans need to do to diminish it. Hello everyone, and welcome back to the People and Tech podcast. As usual, we want to talk about that intersection where technology meets humans and whether or not there is any human death in organizations.
Duena:We have one amazing guest today, as you heard in the introduction. I hope you're excited already to hear Doctor. Jones talk to us. And the reason we are that excited is that he has spent the last five or six years now, I'm joking. A good twenty, thirty.
Duena:I didn't want to say an exact number. Studying exactly what it is that makes organizations tick and what it is that makes them untick. So, I have a 100,000,000 questions starting from what is your favorite organizational theory to what exactly do we do these days? But before we go into them, welcome to the show, Doctor. Jones, thank you for speaking to us.
Duena:And I'll tell a really cute, amazing story that absolutely kind of assuages my ego, of course, but outside of that, it really, really made me tear up when I heard, which is Doctor. Jones was kind enough to say that one of my books was a topic of conversation in one of his classes. So, hi and welcome and thank you so much for telling us that.
Kevin:Well, thank you. And again, it's not as I explained in our precast, I didn't put this book up there just because I was speaking with you. It is a book that creates conversation and most people right away say, that's it right there. People before tech. And then I add people with tech.
Kevin:Okay. It's we start with people and then we start with tech. And that's where I focus a lot of my work.
Duena:I like that. You can probably have the TM of that. We have a people, not tech company, people and tech podcast, but people with You haven't. You can absolutely have it. And with all my heart, you should, because if I'm correct in reading what I read, I think you and I, and all of us are on the same page, which is there is so much more that needs to be done inside organizations so that we now take heart.
Duena:Is that the correct thesis? Do we share this?
Kevin:Yes, yes. We are all in a transition and when you sometimes talk to people, they'll say things like, Oh, you know, we've never ever been in this type of transition before. And I say, well, that's not correct. We've gone through many, many transitions over all of time. It's the difference, the difference though right now is the speed of the change, the acceleration of the change where, all right, did we change from corded phones to cell phones?
Kevin:Yes. Well, that occurred over a period of time. But how about generative AI? We went from chat GPT to AI agents seemingly in a blink of an eye. And that is what is different about change.
Kevin:And that is one of the hardest things for people to adapt to. Change is hard for people to adapt to, A, but B, accelerate change makes it even more different.
Dave:Yeah. So that leads us into the eternal question. Think really, is AI coming to get us? And when's it going to come and get us? You know, we spoke about those other little other changes from cell phones and gradual evolution.
Dave:I mean, is AI a one way door that we have to leapfrog?
Duena:Sure. You get this question all the time, Doctor Johnston.
Kevin:Yeah, I do. And I've had the opportunity to hear Joshua Benjiola, And I've heard Jeffrey Hinton speak on video and, you know, I've heard a number of people talk about the potential futures that could be, okay? And my answer is a little different than some, is yes, we have to keep our eyes toward the future and what could be, but I have to deal with today, Okay. I can't be worried about the end today because maybe the end is today, but last time I checked, I have a lot to do today. So always keep, you have to keep your eye open.
Kevin:Have to have conversations and you have to speak to the ethicality of what does it mean for the continued advance of all different types of technologies, but we shouldn't obsess about that. Today, what I have to do is learn as much as I can to maximize my effectiveness, my potential, my productivity, myself with technology. So yes, it may be the end, but you know what? It may always be the end. So I don't spend my life worrying about the dystopian view of technology because, oh, by the way, that's been preached since I've been a baby.
Duena:Absolutely. I
Kevin:can say that for sure.
Duena:Okay. I like that lens. I also say this quite honestly, maybe too much these days, but I feel like the era where we should be worried about whether or not AI is coming and what or not we are doing within technology is a bit of a misdemeanor, if you wish, because what we need to get best at are the things you very briefly touched on earlier, and those we have to do irrespective of what happens. Irrespective of who we work for, in what industry we work and when we work. As existing generations on earth, we have to get better at this human work.
Duena:The empathy bit, the communication bit, the kindness bit, the being a person who opens up bit, the being courageous bit, the being curious bit, all of those things are things that we have to work on. And it's that we know, because we know, right? Anyone listening to this who has spend five minutes doing a little bit of self work knows that that's a daily slog. And until such time that we do this daily slog more willingly and without moaning that it's happening to us, it's probably going to be difficult to move any further. So I like that.
Duena:Let's not even worry about whether they're not coming to get us, because it's not coming to get us anytime during our lifetime, to be fair. Equally, obviously, as well you said, are many things to consider for what we leave behind. And I've spent personally, I've had a number of life moments recently and we are in the middle of tried weeks. So it's worth expressing that to me, moment humanity is in has multiple ramifications and this part of it, whether humans are able to avail themselves of the humanity combined with the technology is absolutely fascinating because it touches on our identity, on our social moments, on our geographies, on our absolutely everything. So I love where you're at.
Duena:You're the thinker in the middle of it all. What do you see around you from other people that are preparing to become, I'm expecting to meet both thinkers and doers, correct?
Kevin:Yes. Yes. Well, there's a range as you can imagine. There, there, there are, and I I'll, I'll speak of the microcosm of my workplace as an example. Okay.
Kevin:It's a small part of Indiana University, Indiana University of Columbus. We don't have very many faculty, but within that small group of faculties, we have a whole range of views of technology. Okay. I have the guy who comes up to me and wants to show me videos of the end of time because of technology. And then I'll have people that will sit in my office and wanna talk all day long about the potentials and opportunities and ways.
Kevin:We're all over the place and maybe that's right. Okay. Maybe we should not all come to the same place of understanding, but we should be learning from each other. We should be asking more questions and not get to the perspective of, well, I know. And that's one of the nice things I will say about the current age of technology, because we cannot point to a person and say, oh wow, they have all the answers.
Duena:That's right.
Kevin:You know, the idea of the expert is one that can be continually questioned in this day. What can occur today is you can be, you can have expertise, but you cannot be an expert, plural. Because even if you're an expert, you have to keep learning and keep growing. If you're not learning and growing and you have fixed your expertise, well, we can say for sure, you are not an expert.
Duena:Very true. And it's this continuation, this continuous need for curiosity is what I return to all the time, because you cannot mandate that organizationally. And we know this having seen hundreds of thousands of organizations in our lifetime, whether we read about them or we experienced them firsthand. I've seen both a consultant and an entrepreneur in tens of organizations. And one thing that is in common in all of them is that unfortunately this human debt that I keep returning to is existing, whether it has different forms, whether it's ignored or not, whether people want to admit it or not, that's irrelevant, but the commonality of its existence is there.
Duena:So I always say that maybe the way around it is to find enough of the fundamentals and curiosity is a fundamental, empathy and kindness is obviously a fundamental. And if we can return to those big ones, language and clarity, when we talk about communication and coming from a good place, that you intend communication in a good way is a fundamental. And if we can have those few in place, then I feel like we are in a much, much, much better place from all points of view. Would you agree or disagree?
Kevin:I agree a 100%. When, again, to overhype your book, but again, the word-
Duena:Don't have to, Doctor. Don't gonna be honest, it's very bad.
Kevin:That's okay. But the emphasis in all of our work must be people. And again, I realize not everybody thinks in that way. Okay. I, you know, lived a long time and I know not everybody thinks in that way.
Kevin:Some people think people think negative. Well, I think people in positive. I'm not Pollyanna in the sense of, I think all people are great. No, absolutely not. But I do know that, and I hope this is always going to be the case, the overwhelming majority of people have a common interest of trying to do good things.
Kevin:The overwhelming majority. Okay. And with that overwhelming majority of people who want to do good things, well now let's add this thing called technology. So some of us need to help to show how this technology can enhance rather than just subtract. Yes, there are changes and that's where I live.
Kevin:I live in organizational change. That's what I do. Okay. However, I don't look at organizational change as subtraction. It is an additive.
Kevin:It is an opportunity. It is a way of thinking that may modify. It may enhance. Yes, there's realities we face, but if you, you know, okay, I'm the half full person. I am not the half empty person.
Kevin:And in my lifetime, it has served me well to look for the positive opportunity rather than look for the negative opportunity. Because here's the simple thing, the negatives are always there. It's easy to find the negative. So we work to overcome those negatives through the positive work, which starts with a caring and elevation of people.
Duena:Right. I love how you've reframe that in, you know, momentous forward way, because this is where we get stuck is, even if we all realize the point we've arrived at, it does become a moment of a now what? And ideally, we'll all have a now what moment that's kind of more involved and kinder, and ideally we all can, and I don't know if you see this or not, but organizationally, it feels like there would have been easier levers than we have been availing ourselves as human self. We've, for instance, to my mind, the fact that we've had an Aristotle score for fifteen years and not every organization in the world is using it, it's bizarre. The fact that we have, kind of the concept of psychological safety and not every team in the world is having it as the first indicator because no other work matters other than that, is bizarre.
Duena:I don't quite understand why we've done the things that we've done to make our organizations non generative and to make them all the bad things that Ron and Westrum has warned us about, but many organizations are in a place where they are bureaucratic or they are toxic. And kind of the reality of it is, let me ask you, what is your best advice to an organization that finds itself says, fine, I'll be honest, I have human debt. I haven't treated my people right. I don't know how to put these fundamentals in place. I know that you're right.
Duena:You are all talking sense. Let's do communication through language. Let's do empathy. How in the hell do I do that? What do you tell students that say, believe you, now what?
Duena:How do I build an organization without human debt?
Kevin:Well, and that's one of the great opportunities I have as a college professor, especially working with MBA students, because I can say number of things, you know, because I teach business ethics and I say about doing the right thing and I'll have students look me straight in the eye and say, okay, how do we do that? And what they do is they're not just asking the question. They're giving examples of in their experiences, even though younger than I am, then their experiences, what they've seen. And they're not saying they don't believe me, but they're saying, okay, tell us how you do this. And I said, well, in all truth, I don't have an answer for your workplace.
Kevin:I don't have an answer for your boss, for your lead, but I have an answer for you. If we can focus on ourselves in our own sphere of influence, And some people call that minimalist. And okay, maybe it is. But within my sphere of influence, I can create a positive space. I have two employees.
Kevin:Okay. I've had more, I've had up to 300, but right now I have two employees. Okay. And with those two employees, I have a sphere of influence. And what can I do?
Kevin:Using the term psychological safety, I can create that space within those two employees. Now, does that affect the entire organization? No. But can I affect two people whose lives intertwine with hundreds of other people? The answer is yes.
Kevin:So call me minimalist, But when I tell my students, if each one of you, if the 20 of you walked away and focus on making things better in your workspace with your people, the people you interact with, your peers, your network, well, while we don't solve the world's problems, we surely create a space of improvement through your individual work.
Duena:Is that a number that they can put on it? Do they know that if they don't do that, their enterprise can't thrive?
Kevin:Yeah, we can do that. We talk about that.
Duena:I've got the number, you got the number, but do your students know that there's a number or not doing that?
Kevin:Well, that's called instruction. Have them think through that. Okay. We have them think about their sphere of influence. And part of some people say you just started to pump them up, but the truth is we don't know what their potential is.
Kevin:We don't know what types of leadership roles they will have. So you can start with where they are right now, but we talk a lot about where you may be. And where you may be, you may find yourself in a position where you have 300, 500, a 3,000. Okay, now, do you have to change what you believe in terms of your values, in terms of your ethics, because you have 3,000? Well, while some business leaders would argue with me, yes, you do.
Kevin:I will tell you through, okay, how long have I been in the workplace? Here we go. I'm gonna give my age away, I've been in the workplace forty years. Okay. Forty.
Kevin:And so, well, actually I cheated. Let's call it forty five. Forty five years. I've been in the game full employment.
Duena:Am impressed Doctor. Jones, but I've been doing this for thirty years.
Kevin:Well, see, okay. So in forty five forty five years, I can tell you I've seen really bad leaders. I've seen some evil leaders. Here's an example. Let me give you an example of an evil leader.
Kevin:Now, this was not the senior leader. He was in the c suite, but he was a vice president. Okay? So he was not just anybody. And we were having a layoff.
Kevin:Okay? We were having our first layoff at this organization. And, you know, I didn't really wanna be a part of it, but I was in the area where I had to be a part it. So we went to get some advice from our leader because some people were struggling with it, right? And he looked at us and he said, what you do is you look at them with your teeth and you, pardon the expression, F them with your teeth because that's the way it is.
Kevin:We're going to do these layoffs whether they like it
Duena:or not. Wish I could say this to you guys. If you're only listening to this and you're not seeing it, catch this on YouTube. So you see Doctor. Jones's exact expression and you will absolutely get this.
Duena:What do you do?
Kevin:What do you do? I mean, he, you know, okay. Do I quit? Walk out the door and quit? Well, I have a family and, you know, I'm working in a car.
Kevin:I'm kind of stuck in this. This is the leader. This is a person three levels above me, and this is their attitude. Well, okay. Fast forward, because I could go on and on with this same story.
Kevin:Part of my job was to share the benefits package and the, you know, things that they're being laid off, but there are some things that the company was providing them at the time, you know, not a job, but, you know, we were trying to help the transition in a small way. So my job turned into something I wasn't qualified for at that stage of my career, but I had to turn into a listener slash counselor. Okay. Not registered or licensed, but I had to listen. I had to hear the frustrations.
Kevin:I had to hear the anger in some cases. And one of the things I may have in my mind to do is not to do as I was instructed. Okay, move on to the next, give them a package, say thank you, and move on. Rob, I spent I've
Dave:done it myself, looking people in the eyes as you have to make these people redundant for whatever business reason. And, you know, know, you can see their lives literally crumbling in front of them. The how am I gonna feed my wife? How am I gonna feed my kids?
Duena:Yeah. And having that empathy transfer up or down levels, that's still not affecting the business needs. So, yeah. And
Kevin:I would say that stuck with me my whole career. And, you know, just like with everything, when we experience negatives, it sometimes is shaping and helping because I know for a fact that subsequent to that time, if I've ever been in a position where I've had to let someone go and make sure that I ensure, make sure that I ensure that they do not leave negative. We honor the work they did before they left. We inform them about the reasons, which understanding, we're not trying to sell them on the reason, we're just being transparent. And then from there, we ask, is there something we can do?
Kevin:And we're sincere with it. I can say that one person that I actually did have to let go. Okay. The person did not like me for a long period of time, but I reached out to them and said, how's it going? And they said, well, it's going.
Kevin:I was wondering if you could give me a reference.
Duena:That's amazing.
Kevin:And you know what? The answer was yes.
Duena:Yes.
Kevin:Because I'm not going to focus on the reasons why they were departed. I'm focusing on the work that they did before they were departed. And therefore I was able to give reference and they were able to get the next position. And then that restored an ongoing, network contact. So periodically they'll check-in with me and I'll check with them and why, you know, why would they talk to someone who actually fired them?
Duena:Right.
Kevin:Because
Duena:You said that you put your finger in the restoration is the key there, isn't it? And I think this is key to something that I've been on and on lately about, which is that human debt is bigger than just in the workplace. We have human debt everywhere in our relationships. We have left things undone properly. We're not doing the right things anymore.
Duena:We're not doing the right thing by each other anymore. And I feel like because of that, a lot is left with bad will, a lot is left with bad intentions, a lot is left hanging, we feel guilty towards people, we never finish up things. It's a never ending carousel for some people where that in business becomes the fabric of the human debt of a place. So to mitigate against that amongst these fundamentals that they were talking about, the way that you're bringing this in is that we need to bring ourselves to a place where we're honest and we are authentic and we are from the heart and we can do something that in our relationships is useful as well. Finally bring back to the point, which is rupture and repair, which is the basis of all flexibility and elasticity in human relationships.
Duena:And if we are unable to do rupture and repair in business, it's because we leave things too unwell and too un elegantly disputed in a fashion that leaves us settled and understanding where to go forward as in your story. So, the more we can do that, the more we can understand that there is option and repair. There will be things that are less unclear. There will be moments of humanity where we don't do our best. We aren't our best.
Duena:We show up as humans at work. Let's remember that we are human beings. That's probably, I feel like it's always the root of all evil where we can point, where we see these CEOs and CROs, you see them all every day when you meet them. What do they tell you about seeing this human that from the point of view of what Doctor. Jones is preparing with these leaders?
Duena:Do they see the same things? I've stepped out of productive business. If you wish, I don't talk to these CEOs and chief risk officers every day, or they know less, because it was killing my soul to hear that they have very little that they can do to fix HR or their companies. But you hear this every day. Do they need new leaders coming in having had these avenues of instruction from Doctor Jones to bring that to the business world?
Duena:Or is that there already?
Dave:No, no, no, definitely. I think there is a tipping point it seems to be around at the moment. You know, we were watching the Boeing documentary a few nights ago and how that was an absolute disaster as a company from just covering up basic safety facts all the way through.
Duena:And we have at least five or six examples, but active examples of that happening today with clients of ours. So it's really hard to watch.
Dave:And when we think about now FCA regulations coming in around psychological safety, and there's no magical cure for safety inverted commas whistleblower or suppressing the whistleblower. But if we have some psychological safety training, etc, with inside of that, the FCA is looking upon those activities a lot more easily in terms of if you were to hit an issue with a vogue employee.
Duena:I mean, there's many aspects to this, of course, and it's one of them. But the for those of us who are listening to this and are not into four year sins into banking or financial financial industry. The FCA is the regulator, the Financial Conduct Authority. They have actually, and this is an interesting thing for those of you who are not at all interested in these topics, but are interested in the idea of organizational health. If an organization is not healthy, then it will perform such as the many financial institutions have done in 2018, 2020 and other 2000.
Duena:So the idea of that has been regulated at long last by the Financial Conduct Authority who is trying to step in and ensure that these things do not happen again. So it's maybe the first time that the regulator steps in and says, organizationally, you cannot run this place like this anymore. You have to care about your humans. You have to put some things in place. Have you seen that, Doctor.
Duena:Jones? Do you feel like the regulator is starting to step in in some industries to discuss the topics we are so passionate about?
Kevin:Yes and no. Yes and no. See, being in The US, we have a most interesting dynamic occurring right now. It's, there's some progress, but then there's also those who push against the progress. And that's a much more difficult topic for me to talk about in terms of government and what regulators are able to do and what they cannot do.
Kevin:And the reason why it's difficult is because we're very dependent upon the legislative process in terms of who is in charge of this, who's in charge of that. And so long story short is, yes, there is some progress, but ultimately, particularly in the tech industry, I'm finding that government is still behind the tech industry. So the challenge, most challenging aspect is that this type of, if you will, regulatory ethical governance must emanate from the industry, not so much from government. And that's always going to be difficult because of what is a, as I say to my classroom, what is the purpose of business? Okay.
Kevin:All right. Why allow people to hate us business people, but at the end the you gotta make some money. Okay. But we also can argue how you make money is still important and will always be. And that's what will be on your tombstone when you die.
Kevin:Okay? If you are a person that robbed and cheated and stole and scammed, well, that's on your tombstone when you die.
Duena:Yes.
Kevin:Okay? If you are a person that maybe didn't make as much money as somebody else, you weren't on the top 10 billionaires list, but you were able to live a comfortable life and you have many people whose lives you possibly affected, Well, the way, that's on your tombstone too. And that's your legacy. And that's what people will remember about you. So for all the people who scam and cheat and lie, they'll be dead just like I will.
Kevin:Okay. But guess what? When I die, my family will not have to go and hide and lie and cover up what I did. My family is gonna be able to say, this is what he did. Real quick story to tell you.
Kevin:See, in my other work, I call it my Sunday work, I participated in some funerals, right? And the funerals that are really wonderful, yes, wonderful funerals, is those celebrations of life, of all they did and all they accomplished and who they touched and people wanna speak on them and all this. And then there's those other people from time to time where we have to sit in the room and think of some good things to say to just comfort the family. But they know. They know.
Kevin:But we don't wanna go up and say, this this person knows good. They're dead. You know what I mean? It's why say no. We don't we're obviously not gonna say that.
Kevin:Right? But you see, you have a choice even as a powerful leader, even as a manager, even as an employee, you have a choice of what you want your legacy to be like, because all of us are gonna have a legacy. And guess what? All the stuff you're doing today, when you close your eyes for the last time, none of it matters. Unless what you did, you left for someone else to benefit from and grow and develop from.
Kevin:Okay. There you got my whole philosophy there right now.
Duena:I love that, Nacho. And it is really what it all boils down to, isn't it? I was invited on a podcast just the other week I was speaking and the host very lovingly and calmly said, oh, well, don't know. I don't claim that I know it. I'm paraphrasing it and obviously I'm not gonna get it as well.
Duena:But she was simply saying, I don't, I'm not gonna get it perfectly right but I just try to do what my mother has always told me to do, which is to figure out, am I doing this out of ego or out of love for others? Is this for me or the right thing for others? And if I try and figure it out, and sometimes I'm gonna cut myself passes, I'm gonna do it for me only and that's fine. But most times I'm gonna try and do things out of love and for others. And if I know I'm doing that most times, then I know I'm doing the right thing.
Duena:And I thought, do you know what, that is so simply and elegantly put. And our parents have tried that. I feel like anytime you hear this, you go, you have parents like mine that have tried to tell us that, don't you? To just be good humans. And I think if we rely back on that, most of us have had humans in our lives that have just wanted us to do well and to abide by what's not ego, but love for others and the right thing.
Duena:It just makes it a lot easier to have that tombstone right itself, if you just take the right road, if you can. But obviously we're not great at giving, I'm not, I tend to not like giving people life advice, because God knows my life is in a very public and extraordinary shambles. So, what I try to do instead is give organizational advice. So, that's very clear to me. Very clear what organizations need to do, right?
Duena:So going back to that, I say, if you have to choose one thing, focus on your human work. Go back into the organization and teach them my EQ, teach them to take the time for themselves, teach them to look around and be honest, teach them to be curious, teach them to care about each other. If these things become values and become things that you intently want people to do, you cannot go wrong. You cannot keep amassing. Maybe you're not gonna take down your human level.
Duena:You can't get more. You can't get new of it if you start doing this thing. So do you see that organizations hear this like that? Who is the organization? I keep saying it's like Santa Claus.
Kevin:That is an important question and I answer it every Organization is equal. It's people organizing toward a common purpose. And that's in the best case, okay? You're organizing toward a common purpose. Okay.
Kevin:That's the best case. And we could put that lens on a number of organizations and say, that's really not a good organization because they're not organizing together for a common purpose. Okay. But, I do, I just wanna tell you this, back to kind of the sphere, the sphere of influence. Okay.
Kevin:You know, I used my title. Some people say, why you use your title? I say, well, I use my title because I don't want to use my other title. I don't use that title ever. Okay?
Kevin:So here is this title because I'm old fashioned, I'm just old. So I like titles. Anyway, that being said, the reason I have this title correlates to one of my managers. Okay. And you say, what?
Kevin:You know, didn't you do, didn't you go to school? Yeah, I'd been in school. Did you do work? Yes, I did work. No, no, but here it is.
Kevin:In that workplace, in that same workplace I told you the story earlier, my boss said to me, he said, have you ever thought about working on a doctor? You know what my answer was? Yeah, sure. I'm gonna do it. When I find more time, I'm gonna get right.
Kevin:He said, look, I'm your boss. I will support you. I encourage you to do it now.
Duena:Without
Kevin:Doctor. H. Nathan Charles saying that, I don't know if I'm sitting in front of you right now. I surely don't have that doctor sitting in front of my name because he decided to look beyond his own work and say, I'm going to build an opportunity for someone else. How did he build the opportunity?
Kevin:Well, he was there. He'd been through it. He understood how hard it is to work and go to school at the same time. And I'll stop with that story, but it comes all the way back to in organizations. Here's the question I ask for managers and leaders.
Kevin:Are you doing that for anybody? Are you looking beyond yourself and your own work and saying, is there anybody there that I can, even if it's just one, even if it's just one, am I finding that one person saying, Hey, I see your potential and I'm gonna do whatever I can to maximize your potential. Because you know what? Thirty years later, you can see that person on whatever the technology will be at the time, and you can feel proud every time you see them. I tell Doctor.
Kevin:Charles, I say, every time you see me accomplish something, you you have a piece of it.
Duena:Oh, man.
Kevin:And he says, says, just remember, you did the work though. I said, yes, but you made the opportunity for the work. Amazing.
Duena:So is an amazing, amazing story. And I like that Yard measurement stick. Are you doing that for anyone else? And let me, let me be honest to people listening to this. If you're not anyone's mentor, look to become someone's mentor as a professional, because it is an amazing step.
Duena:You feel like you don't have time, you feel like that's the last thing I want to be doing, but realistically being part of someone else's growth voluntarily as an entrepreneur is probably one of the best things you can do. And as I've been, you know, been over my career a mentor for Techstars, I've been a mentor for Startup Bootcamp, I've seen people grow. It's just hard to explain how much, and I'm sure I don't need to preach it to someone who teaches every day. Is such a glean seeing people grow and having taken a point of view that they wouldn't have otherwise considered in to that growth. It's an amazing-
Kevin:See, here's the other thing I'll say to you too. I'll say, okay, if you're in the type of work where you say, don't have time to do it. Then I tell you what, save your money for a period of time, build up some money, put some money in the bank and then go take a little part time job in higher education. Okay. You know, teaching adjunct, you know, if you're an expert in anything, if you're a professional, you know, find yourself part time.
Kevin:And yes, while it's not a panacea, students can be challenging and grading, nobody likes to do it, but you know what? In the midst of all that, you will find yourself an opportunity in education to help somebody change their lives. And there is no better feeling than you didn't seek it, you didn't script it, you just happened to be there and you were available to help someone change their lives. If you can't get excited about that, then you lost You your consciousness many years lost your consciousness. You're not even awake.
Kevin:You sleep. You're working. You don't even know what's going on. You cannot get a good feeling out helping somebody, you're downright evil. But outside that, you need to fix yourself because where we get our joy is through the helping of others.
Duena:And that's available to everyone, and I know it sounds like we are sometimes preaching from an ivory tower, we are absolutely not. No matter what industry you're in when you're listening to this, your sphere of influence as Doctor. Johnson said, your team, the people around you, you're the first line of support to getting that psychological safety in today. You're the one that can bring it in today. You're the one that can open up first.
Duena:You're the one that can bring others to open up in that same safe space. There's something to be done to be someone's human work hero, no matter where you are, when you're listening to them. Yes. So we cannot thank you anymore for the amazing perspective and for coming on the show to talk to us. It's been absolutely inspiring.
Duena:We'd love to have you again. I have a couple of more questions and then we can talk about tech led culture as well. That brings us into, does technology and the way that technology is needing us to communicate these days, provide the answer for how human we're going to become over the next twenty, thirty years. And I'd love to hear your perspective on that. We don't have a lot of more time today, but on the next episode.
Dave:Well, that was a teaser to leave
Kevin:it Well, it's been a true pleasure. It really has. I enjoy, I just, you know, I wish I was where you are. I tell you that.
Duena:Oh, thank you. It's a
Dave:lovely place where Circumstances we could have been better.
Kevin:Well, that's okay. But you are there now and you can turn behind you and see those beautiful mountains and hey, more power to you. And so here we go.
Duena:Is so beautiful place, but and I thank you so much for being here and for bringing this up because one of our tools.
Kevin:Live long and prosper.
Duena:Thank you. And same here. Thank you. Bye.
Dave:Thanks very much.
