S2E5 — The Need for Leaders to Be Remarkable (with Karen Ferris)
Welcome to a new episode of People and Tech. Today, an absolute trait. Voice on LinkedIn, a mind on LinkedIn, a curator on LinkedIn, someone who has single handedly influenced the way that the world of work is seeing society, someone who has undoubtedly made contributions in their area that in the workforce can be pointed out every day. Karen Farris. Karen is one of the most well known change and strategy consultants in Asia Pacific, I would say.
Duena:And it's someone that I have immense respect for. Not only is Karen always clued in on the latest and most accurate statistics that show leaders how they should adapt their leadership towards resilience, towards flexibility, towards an agile mindset. But Karen has a deep comprehension and understanding of the entire helicopter view of the workplace today and the big questions that need to be answered. So if you have a chance, please pick up her latest book, please subscribe to her newsletter on LinkedIn and follow her because there is little more erudite and intelligent, heartful curation that you can find. I hope you enjoyed the episode and I hope you come back next week because we have an immensely big treat for you.
Duena:People who have also shaped the lives of those around them in the region, people who have written books, people who have changed the minds of entire generations of academia. Come back to People in North Tech next week and thank you for listening to us. We hope you enjoy my heart to heart with Karen.
Duena:Hello, everyone, and welcome back to another edition of People and Tech. Just me today, Dave is away talking to Piant. He was very disappointed because our guest today is someone that she absolutely adores, reads regularly. She is someone who has shaped opinion in the world of work. She is someone who has changed organizations for the better, genuine influence, someone with so much curiosity and love for the people topic that you will be hard pressed to find someone else.
Duena:So welcome to the show, Karen, and I will add a little intro right before that and also leave people with a link to your LinkedIn because there's too much that they have to learn from you. Welcome to the show.
Karen:Thank you so much. It's a pleasure to be here. It's been too long.
Duena:It has. We've been talking about this for many, many, means, but we haven't quite gotten to it from any You've point of written a book anyway?
Karen:Yes, so I've written another book. So, this will be my eighth book. Three of my books are tiny little wincy ones that are business books, but I keep getting told, no, you should count them, count them!' so, yeah, this one is called Be Remarkable, Learn to Learn a New Leadership Mindset, and yeah, I'm very, very proud of this one, it's just
Duena:a bit comfort as well, I saw it earlier and it's absolutely lovely.
Karen:We had a bit of a debate about something that might just jump out and set people, but yeah, it's about being a leader that's different and I think that's just we're having leadership crisis as far as I'm concerned right now. We've had it for a while, but it's just got worse. Absolutely. We have had
Duena:the leadership crisis, not only reading I've read my book, but have several agendas on leadership crisis, emotional intelligence crisis. We have mental health crisis. We have so many. This one, the leadership level, Karen says, is that hopefully the one where we can make most change the fastest by just inspiring people. Is that what the book does?
Duena:It will inspire readers to say you can be more courageous and these are some things that could help you.
Karen:Yeah, I mean, the expressions in my head felt for a while and I think it was, you know, COVID, the realization that we have many leaders, not all of them, I use many leaders loosely, but many leaders who just want to go back to how it was pre-twenty twenty. They get back into the office, sitting in wings or seats, mountain control, micromanage, and they're like, hold on, we've had a major shift, we've had the most successful experiment in the way we work ever. We should be embracing this as the bed of solitude we've been presented We didn't have to
Duena:do anything, it did it
Karen:for us. And then we're suddenly getting this backlash and I'm like, we've got leadership, we've been both pre pandemic, but it's like, it's going us all like. And that's why one of the subtitle is Learn to Unlearn. Now, didn't come up with that phrase, it was a guy called Alvin Toppler in his book, Future Shark 1970, but it really resounded me with his- it's like, yes, we've learned, It doesn't end there. We have to be brave enough to say, I need to unlearn.
Karen:What stood me or said yesterday is no good today. And that's tough because you're like, well, I've just spent ten years developing my skills as a leader, now you tell them they're irrelevant. And I'm like, yes, they are.
Duena:Thirty years. More years. So, in essence,
Karen:if I have a growth mindset, and I think we've got so many reasons with fixed mindsets.
Duena:I think this is a really interesting one, and maybe, you know, when I address people from this podcast, I try to think of who I'm talking to, it's really difficult because you really have no control when you put something out there as to where it lands or not. But I have met, and you have met hundreds of these people. Who I haven't met hilariously is I run another post dev called those deals on the feeder clip, and we had access to the very top of the CEOs of everywhere. I still have met all the hundreds of thousands of execs and have made hundreds of thousands of bonuses and disappeared. I don't know who those people are.
Duena:They're a very special breed that no one has really ever met. Maybe they keep to themselves. But the rest of us, one, yes, we all want to do good work. With that said, I would also like to clear the, but we are doing our best vein of thought that keeps happening because these two things have to be separated. We cannot say them in the same word.
Duena:It will be bad for us as businesses. Then secondly, you said, we had this handed to us, these results. We didn't have to make these big checks. We didn't have to take a big decision. No one lost a job because they said, Fine, you can work from home.
Duena:It happened for you, big exam. But what we have now, and I want everyone to remember, is leaders are accidental leaders. The vast majority of leaders we have are accidental leaders. That's the minority. They're non accidental leaders.
Duena:They are career leaders. They are possibly worse because in a sense these people have come from very regimented business schools that told them that command and control is the only way. They even taught them very thick processes in which to micro manage. Very difficult to make those people want to learn anything. In fact, if you're a real CEO or listening to this and you've noticed some of these people around, move them Because In all honesty, find something else.
Duena:Maybe they're a big saxophone player or they can do ABIs. Give them something else because the leadership they're doing is probably not gonna serve you. Everyone else does want to learn. As Karen says, and here's where we are, we have to learn. What's the first step to learn though?
Duena:Do they not need a whole lot of balls to learn first?
Karen:Yeah, I mean it's got to be that wake up call that to realise, and however that happens with us, feedback from other people, from the teams, from colleagues, whatever it might be, and this is the big kicker, it's that wake up call to say, yeah, what I knew yesterday is not going to enable me to lead today. And once that happens, then the rest just falls into place. It's okay, I need to relearn. I need to get rid of what I knew and relearn. So, you know, out, finding what, you know, what new ways to present, ways of leading, what employees are asking for, etc.
Karen:For it's that recognition that I need to change.
Duena:That's acceptance, that's first place, right? That's the case for anything we want to do in life. He does have no stupid, they know that most leaders have fault with addiction. They fault with self discipline. They fault with very hard life life moments.
Duena:Let's face it. We've all been through very hard things. We know they have to work hard, though. These people bit. I don't I don't even need to say it with more desperation.
Duena:People know they have to relearn it. The resistance now and the denial now has to cease. Unfortunately, we've delegated as leaders this task to other people, and we hope Gerard or Saurus will deal. The beauty of it is you can still delegate. Many of the things that Karen and I are talking about are going to depend on your feelings.
Duena:They're gonna depend on each and every one of your people having the same moment and you're going to have to embrace them through it, right?
Karen:Yep, absolutely and I think, you
Duena:know, the biggest example of the fact
Karen:that leaders are stuck is that, you know, in 2020, and you've heard me quote these before, when global surveillance software of employees went through the roof in March 2020. The global demand went up by 82% compared with the same time next year. So that's telling me we have, I'll call them bosses. Bosses are like, Oh, I can't see them. I need to monitor their keyboard strokes, because that will tell me that they're being productive.
Karen:Everybody else knows that that's bullshit. Doesn't matter how long you're kicking. I say to these people, if they're not productive remotely, they weren't productive when you could see them. You just thought they were. And it took that mind and then now we go, oh you need to be back in the office Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday.
Karen:Why?
Duena:Because it
Karen:doesn't make any sense and they're quoting productivity and they're quoting culture and they're quoting nothing that holds water. It just to me, it's just lots of stupidity. And everyone can see it. And it's there's gotta be some fallout at some point. And then we're almost seeing the boys kicking back.
Duena:Right. Right. And that's it probably, right? That could be it. That could be what's going to completely separate.
Duena:Is that the new generation coming into the world, will not stand for this. They will not stand for coming in. They will not stand for being disrespected. They were not stand for not being seen as different and needing adaptation. They were just not work for you.
Karen:Not being small. I mean, if you are monitoring people, you are saying, do not trust you. And who has to work for an organisation that says, don't trust you. Come on in. I don't trust you.
Karen:You know, I mean, you see the dig back at, you know, Dell, where employees have been threatened with, you know, pay cuts and no career progression or whatever, if they don't come back into the office, take you to send a set. No, that's fine. Stuff you, I'll take the pay cut. I'm lacking in my flexibility.
Duena:Exactly. Like, I like that there's there's almost, I see a big surge actually. I see people saying fine. You're okay to not point to understand who I am, but this is why I've believed I am now and I'm going to do that. And I think it's commendable because it is in a bad market and we have to be honest that jobs are rare because people are holding on to them dearly and that's probably part of why we see no innovation and no intelligence coming into companies.
Duena:But also, it's obviously a very scary thing to say, no, I need to be who I need to be. But the beauty of it, I think, is that we see it. We see it move. And, you know, it's day to day. I have some podcasts when I'm so down in Jordan that people are like, but come on, Brenda.
Duena:You know it's gonna change. You know, it's already been it'd be fifteen, twenty years that we've been saying this. It's not only fifteen, twenty years to me because I've ran out of life to attempt to change this industry. I know that in the grand scheme of things, it is a small moment. And I also say this a lot, but I think it's important that you realize making technology was a small moment, I believe, in the world development.
Duena:Only had to make it by hand as humans for a while. Given five, ten years, that's not going to be the norm. And for the ones that sit there and attended desperately to make it work, we are collectively burnt out, we are tired, we are fed up, and we are very soon unfortunately going to be cast aside. So I think we're looking at several things in the workplace that I don't know that HR professionals are as afraid of as we are on the other highlights. Like you say, everyone knows.
Duena:Every HR professional is aware there is a crisis of leadership. Is a crisis of VQ. Nobody does any human work. We just pretend BAU works. Everyone is aware the emperor is butt naked, but no one is courageous enough internally to do much.
Duena:They don't have the money to do much. There's a hope. There's a generalized hope. Maybe we can come back to some point, which is insane, like you said. But also like, so new generations coming in, existing, those of us that made digital completely burnt out and about to become farmers because we've had enough.
Duena:The house of ex technologists that felt wanting to be a plumber, that's their day job. But maybe one day they can direct to doing something real and physical, you'll be fine. But so all these things are happening and obviously the pandemic and the worst thing that's happening that we don't talk about enough at all and it just does my head in it. The context. Where do we live in?
Duena:We live in a world that's disintegrating physically and emotionally and psychologically, right? So there's trauma all around us. There's, just you know, far The US are slightly potentially feeling further away, but in The States, in Europe, there's a lot of conversation about where do we live so the atomic bombs don't hit us. So I'd like us to remember that, you know, as parents and the few months, we still live in this same political climate that hate our children, wants to bomb us, isn't attempting to and then we go to work and we pretend everything is fine from Wednesday to Thursday when they told us to show something on the screen. It is an insane convention.
Duena:What can we do to breakfast?
Karen:That's a big question, isn't it? It's a big question. I think, I keep saying to people, they have to ask, and I'm not sure if it's a cancer question, but keep asking why. Why am I doing this? Because I did it yesterday, no.
Karen:Why am I doing this? What value is it adding? What purpose does it deliver? Because I think we do have all this going on in our lives, and you're right. We go into a- sit in front of a screen and then we go, okay, it's all gone away now.
Karen:It's like, no it hasn't, you know, but what am I doing? You know, what Crohn's disease is serving? And I think that's the biggest question that people just have stopped asking, like why? Why was it doing it?
Duena:Taking out this different questioning purpose feels frivolous when people are in survival mode.
Karen:Well, think it's yeah, because people want to, you know, go with lockdown and go into, you know, the safety, whatever that feels like, you know, and not ask the questions. Because it's like if I said to, for example, going back to the return to the office Monday, if I said to the boss, why? And they said, it's our culture. I'm like, no, culture doesn't live in a building. So, why?
Karen:Oh, well, you'll be more productive. Well, sorry, research says I'll be more productive at home. So, why? So, you keep asking those questions and I know if I did that, I'd probably be escorted out the door very quickly.
Duena:Well, that's the second question anyway, because they know best.
Karen:You know, so, you know, I keep saying to people they need to keep asking me why, but they're like, woah, you know, it's not, it's gonna rub the wrong way. And we know it is, so, but unless we, unless we do, because I think the powers that be ghost bosses, unless we keep asking why, they're not getting that wake up call to go, do you know what? These people are actually right. It's not about culture. It's not about collaboration.
Karen:It's not about productivity. If people want to go into an office, it's because they want to, because it's intentional.
Duena:Because it's human connection.
Karen:It's the, because they want to connect, not because the boss said, because the boss didn't say come in on a Wednesday for connectivity and I could go in on Wednesday, be surrounded by hundreds of people and be most lonely and isolated ever.
Duena:Like we all do on Wednesdays. Who hasn't had a 100 Wednesdays I've had in an office?
Karen:Yes, it doesn't just happen, you know it doesn't just happen. It has to be intentional. So it's about, you know, people need to, yeah, people need to call these bosses out. Yeah. And keep that bit of question and hopefully, but that takes courage, I know it does, but unless we do, there's not a bit of that.
Karen:Some of them will maybe that, you know, some of them would probably just say, you know, culture, connectedness, productivity, because they've been told to say that. That's the lie. Yeah. Just tell them that that's why we need them back in the office. And when someone asks why and has that conversation, not as an attack, but just say, Come on, really why?
Karen:Why are we going down this line? The penny will drop. And that person goes, Do you know what? You're right. Let's sit down and have a conversation about how we will work going forwards.
Karen:And that's what I hope will happen. That my hopes my hope is that it breaks day by day that this is ever gonna ever gonna happen, you know. Mean, they're
Duena:all It will. It will happen. I'm just not gonna describe him, but you know, I'm like,
Karen:I'm just gonna through examples out there, I mean, and there's, you know, a global company now, but Australian based Atlassian. You know, they have- they've got this sorted. And well, I say that, they say they haven't. They're learning every day about how to work and, you know, they have team anywhere. There are offices that nobody has to go into the office unless they want to, but the percentage of occupancy in their offices is quite high because people So, are chosen and yeah, there are parameters around where people can work or whatever, but basically, you can work any way you like, when you like, how you like.
Karen:So they had
Duena:this opportunity to create freedom framework and they took it well, to be fair, Atlassian and many other companies, and I tell this, I say this sometimes, the companies that were born digital first, the companies that were later to come in, they came in, to be fair, with smarter principles and the real smart ones, they have gone to them and they didn't amass human debt, of course. Right? So we were talking the other week with people who are, you know, kind of their key organizations. They have unstructured I don't I'm yet still unclear how unhierarchical organizations really work, if I'm honest with I've never worked in one myself. I get the theory, but I don't get how it works in practice.
Duena:Probably doesn't. I'm sorry for it while listening. I think what we see is that, and it's something you said that I want to catch up to it, personal responsibility. And we say this and all, it's probably why people don't like us as much. There are those consultants that always tell you that the bosses are a piece of such and such and you should cater.
Duena:And those consultants do a lot better than we do. We don't do that. What we do, Karen and I, is go, no, you gotta do some of this work yourself. I'm dead serious. You gotta start working on it.
Duena:You gotta figure out how to be not courageous. You gotta figure out how to, you know, how to fold your wits and still elegantly explain how you feel and why that's important. You gotta get involved humanly if you want them to come back to you. Nobody liked that message because human work is hard.
Karen:Yes. The thing as well is that, you know, and this British search by Jake Walden a while ago in one of his books, or for one of his books, and he said that most people get into a people leadership. There's lots of types of leaders and I say everyone could be a leader. But as a lot of people leaders, people get into people leadership role in the late twenties generally. The first development they get as a leader is in the late thirties, early forties.
Karen:So that means they've got nearly a decade where they're young, getting them all up in the morning and go, I want to do a bad job. They want to be the best they can be, generally. There might be the exception, but generally people want to do the best they can. But with what? I've had no guidance, I've had no coaching, I've- the only role model I've got is the bad boss that was before me.
Karen:So, you've got this perpetual cycle. You know, we- it's- say that leaders need to be, you know, empathetic, empowering, give people autonomy, adaptive, all those sort of things, but we need to provide the help and I need us to do that. It's alright saying it and they could go, yeah, I probably do need to a power hole, but there's a lot of it. It's not easy.
Duena:There are hundreds of conversations you and I have had where people go like, oh my god, that is absolutely true. And now what? And that now what is a good question and a hopeful question. Have I always seen it followed up by those leaders where they genuinely care and genuinely put anything in in practice? No.
Duena:And another thing is we have to remember leaders don't stay. The the what we were saying earlier is the very don't we do them now. And we don't go to The CXOs that have worked their assets off like we have when we were CXOs, we know that. They have barely put their lives together, and they're trying to find the next career move. So if your project and your transformation happens to live with them and they are your only hero and the only person that has made, and I have seen hand on heart, at least four people change a bank personally themselves, each person changed their bank.
Duena:I don't want to but it's very possible. So if you have that agent, massive agent of change that you've been empowering yourself with your beautiful books and the resiliency work you've been doing, How do they spread it quickly to produce an army so that we can all help leadership go, no, we're all humans, what the hell do we do together?
Karen:That is a really good question. How do we? And I think we need to, I mean, part of it for me is writing a book and doing, you know, podcasts like this and all the stuff that I do on LinkedIn. And I think the challenges are so long on set to me. Yeah, all the stuff you said is really good.
Karen:But the bad part isn't listening to what you're saying, you know, but people listening to what you're saying, they're all going, yeah, yeah, yeah. The person who really needs to hear you is probably not listening.
Duena:So, they're hearing you though, Karen. They are hearing you. So eventually there is some.
Karen:Yeah, and I think it's just keep chucking away at it and I think doing it through various mediums at every level of organisations. So, you know, talking to people on the front line, talking to, you know, middle managers, talking to, just hopefully the conversation will eventually get some sort of momentum. The sewer goes, that's what's next. Right. Right.
Karen:Let's grab that. Let's do something. And the key message I keep trying to say to Luke is well, start small.
Duena:Besides, I said you've been back to the same,
Karen:you know, 20 things, 20 traits a leader should have today. Like, a lot of fat news to go, I got us 20 a lot. Pick one.
Duena:Just I love that. So You said start small because I think this is what really terrifies people. Right? Do do you and I and Adriana say there is a way in which you would all go home, come back in and make a better world? Yes.
Duena:Are we telling you you should do that? No, because we know you cannot. You are not equipped and the world is not equipped to do that. So what we're telling you to do is cheap away. And the cheaping away has never been just theoretical.
Duena:You know, there are those academics out there that just want to talk about the topic. I don't. You don't. I know people that don't. We just want to do things, make them better.
Duena:So there's to dos, there's softwares, there's workbooks. There are resources endless if you just genuinely want to talk things. Like Karen says, pick one thing as a trait. Then in this one, in many other books, are 20 ways in which you can query your culture today. They're mine.
Duena:They're from fortified, grown western, maybe Edmondson, yourself and everyone else. And just do these 20 things. Figure out what you're doing. We have given you all the things that we would be selling you and you don't wanna buy it for free already. Just do the things.
Karen:It's like, I've been over workshops with leaders and that I spoke about empowering staff. Moving can be micromanagers and they know they are. They're happy to actually say it. They go sort of, I know. But they see this move to empowering people to this big jump.
Karen:And I'm like, no, no. Let's start small. Pick one task that's really low risk, so you're not gonna, if it goes wrong it'll be alright, and pick a member of staff that you can say, Mary, I know I need to change my leadership style and this is what I'm gonna do and I'd like to work with you and get your feedback and blah blah blah blah blah. And give Mary a small task to do, empower her to give her clear goals, deadlines, reporting, whatever it might be, and get out of the way. And they talk back and they go, that was awesome.
Duena:That worked.
Karen:You know, because don't get it, that worked. It didn't backfire. Mary's really inspired. He's reaching out for the next thing. I had more time on my handles.
Karen:So then the next thing is a bit bigger. And it's all about comfort zone, isn't it? Each time you step outside your comfort zone, the comfort zone gets bigger. Right. You keep expanding it.
Duena:This is amazing. Just that minor thing that you're teaching them in that is, is a combination between learning how to delegate, creating a human connection and being humble and vulnerable at the same time. So that's an incredibly powerful act you could do tomorrow in any of your one on ones. Where are the one on ones though, Karen? Sorry?
Duena:Where are these one on ones where they should talk to Mary though? Let's face it. We knew when we started all this, all what people need to do is genuinely open heartedly talk to each other. Yeah. And it's become harder and harder in the workplace and that's
Karen:the I main think one of the biggest things leaders are there, and this is, you know, history, but you get put into leader position and somewhere there's this unwritten rule that says you now need to know anything. I've never seen it written down, but there's people who believe it, and they go, I can't say I don't know. You know, the bright leaders of the world say, I don't know the answer to that, what do you think? You you and I still get cataracts, but what do you think? How do you think we should do this?
Karen:And to you and me, that's just common sense and conversation, but for a lot of leaders that's like, that's showing I'm vulnerable. I'm seen as vulnerable. And know, Randy Rowell said, vulnerability is not a sign of weakness, it's a sign of courage. It's absolutely she said
Duena:this fifteen years ago, I was going to point this out. I was literally going to say this, that Beverly Auer has been joining these people on Netflix, not like you and I, on LinkedIn in a quarter. She is eloquent and she's lovely and they adore her and she has New York Times bed service. Have you seen anyone do anything about it much other than say I will be vulnerable? Once as a leader, I was scared of a donkey.
Duena:Now you guys continue having psychological safety. Goodbye. So, we're lucky because otherwise we'd cry, right?
Karen:Yeah, think so. But I think it comes down to that, and we to be resilient as well in terms of just chipping away, Chipping away. And it's like they say, you know, we could go, well, Rally Brown with Netflix and documentaries and bestsellers, we've been saying this for fifteen years. Well, it's changed. Nothing changed, you know.
Karen:We have to keep that belief
Duena:that things
Karen:and can get
Duena:I think I find myself sometimes, you know, it's this them versus us, people who are still employed versus people who are on the outside trying to talk at them. And we all think the grass is cleaner on the other side. And let me tell you, it is a lot cleaner on the other side in some ways. In some ways, it is hot. You don't wanna be there.
Duena:But either way, look, when we were when I was back in my former life, I made software for financial technology. When you do, you talk to these incredibly terrified bank executives who have managed to stretch their lives, and I know how it happens, to the point that if they don't bank a 100,000 a month home, it happens. It happens very easily. It's common actually, jobs aside for anyone who doesn't know, please take the work of year on this and take the work of the Virginia institutions on this. People get very easily used to whatever amount of money they bring in and they leave as long as they have a thing.
Duena:It is very possible that exempts are under humongous, home pressure. Also, let's also be honest, there's something we didn't say earlier. There's intersectionality. There's not only the pressure of bringing money. There's also the fact that I know we statewide mayors is who we like to hate these days, and we do, but not all of them are vulnerable.
Duena:And a great majority of them have gone through horrible trauma and they are going through life attempting to generate economy while being suicidal. I think that's a massive thing. We need to start looking at sometime yesterday because not nice to have that happening to put it by. It's like we have a new slavery layer as they do sometimes. But if we have all this and the answers are we can't do big labels without people.
Duena:Let's face it. I'm meeting people fifteen years ago that said, no, you could have people coming like they should in the house for fifteen. So we're not doing that. What what what and we're not doing big press for research, which is something I wanted to say and to ask you. What I see in Europe and what I see in in England, maybe to Central America, is there are zero big transformational projects still happening.
Duena:We're done. We're good. We're platform. We don't need data delivery. We don't need DNI.
Duena:We don't need it. We're good. But even if you don't do one of these big things, the popcorn experiments that shape how people working together can increase their collection. The popcorn experiments where you as a human being listen to Brandon Brown again and try it on holiday, those things cost nothing. They're only apparent from you.
Duena:And we know we're talking to people who have read us for fifteen years since they said don't buy IBM. Really keep the if you're still in, the face. And many of you who are listening to this are not still in. You're out and you're probably burnt out and fed up and don't wanna even listen to this stuff again because we're already doing some plan and nothing changes. But there is change.
Duena:See that the new generation will will pull us, perch it's eight by the years. What do you think happens when they come in?
Karen:Absolutely, I think it's refreshing because I think there's to be a big push back. I think, you know, the generations that are coming now, and employees in general, that are coming in and saying, want work life balance. I want Yes, of course, salary and benefits is a given. Always will be. Has to be, because we all want standard living.
Karen:But, flexibility, work life balance, environment of trust, a good culture, career development, progression. I want to see before I start, I want to see where I could go. These are all the things this generation for me are looking for. How many different to what we looked for, I looked for when we started a job? It's all very security.
Karen:And they're like, just go for another job, you know, gig economy, whatever. I want to work from wherever I can work. That's the nature of the job. So there's a very different expectation, and I've written about this recently, about the gap between what employers generally think news and talent want and what talent wants. And there's a massive gap, and it's like, why is it a gap?
Karen:Because you're not talking to people. It's like, you know, if you're doing a recruit, if you're trying to recruit talent, surely you go and find out what they want, so that your organisation can deliver on that. To me it's 101 stuff, but they don't. They just assume. This is a big assumption that we know best.
Karen:So I think there is going to be pushback. I think we just have to watch it happen and I'd like to help it happen as well, and to make that turn around. And maybe it's that pushback is going to be that catalyst that makes these, the leaders that need to change go, the wake up call.
Duena:It's time. It's time. It's time. Or get out. Because I just feel like it's my turn there that they get out.
Duena:When I was young, which was very, very long ago, it feels like, but maybe, you fifteen, twenty years ago when they got into banking, the the world was, they're gonna have this spaghetti horrible thing for another 10 max cause this guy gotta get out. I mean, this is not gonna be forever. This all is out on in any ways and didn't know how to do anything until they disappear. But those people were 70, Karen. They were not our age trying to change the world and be alone.
Duena:They were just hanging on to seats. Do I don't think those people aren't there anymore? I think we have a new generation of people hanging on to seats out of sheer fear and terrorization of what in the hell do I do with this much human that I have entered here and tried to do my best, but what I'm living at is a massive cultural fuck up, and I don't know where to start. And I think that's what burning people. I think there's also, like I said, the intersectionality to existing context, life drama, existing life drama that's not discussed.
Duena:It does my heading. We've just recently went through some War of War episodes, and I've realized that many particular are absolutely disallowed from ever showing the weakness of I'm sad and desperate. Am I'm at all kinds of things because things are happening to me. And equally, the proportion of men who live with this, with with broken families, not being able to see their children or in in dire need It's humongous in particular in our segments. I think there's just so much we need to do fast.
Duena:The new generation can do it for us, but we're not done. We cannot leave them with this. We have to leave them with better.
Karen:Yeah, yeah, and I think we, you know, we've already said this, that the help is out there. The resources are there, the people to reach out to, to say, you know, how can I do this better? How can I make a difference? How can I make a change? It's all there, it always has been.
Karen:It's about having the courage to say I need help.
Duena:How much does it cost though? Again, let's be honest, if you and I are a and mid sized someone says you need a cultural transformation, we'll be like first of all, F off, Do not. We are great. We are amazing. They talk to us.
Duena:They ask us why 50 times and they go like, make me the right. Let's do it. What do we need to do? The impression would be do we need 500,000 and to stick everyone down and to turn in command and control. Now we're going change and do human work.
Duena:Obviously, that is not what you're going to do. That is not a thing. Don't buy those decks and those beautiful presentations. Someone was telling me yesterday that when they lost the contact once, Danielle got someone or other, it's a general big name. The the buyer asked them, but you know what?
Duena:I didn't invite the real guys, but I don't want slides. And the answer was, I don't want PowerPoint slides. And the answer was, well, we have crazy as well. No. I'm submitting you in a PDF.
Duena:That's where it went up. Right? So it's history and our potent barriers, but it happens to all of us. We have created an industry where that because our dentists are the only one trusted and they're also the steepest sometimes.
Karen:Yes, absolutely.
Duena:It's happening.
Karen:I think all of the challenges as an independent consultant and I've talked to other people who have found the same, especially cogs, probably just that there's a lot of, you know, a bit of diversity around and, you know, if I'm going to an organisation, say, right, you know, here I can help you with, you know, some leadership capability uplift and take a look at it now. I'm going to go to one of the big names. I don't have to name any of them.
Duena:That kind thing, maybe I guess. Who knows?
Karen:And the reason why is because if it all goes pear shaped, that person could say, yeah, but it was It wasn't that. It was Deloitte. Yeah. We're hurt. Because you name them, not picking on any of them.
Karen:They would say, well, wasn't my fault.
Duena:It doesn't even know why you're not for buying Ray BN. It's through
Karen:Karen Paris, you know, so I think that's another fear thing. Always go with the big boys because we've felt I will feel safer.
Duena:Yeah, and showing in knowledge is not as I remember being the small software company who was in the same situation. We were competing with these really big software companies and we were saying, but the thing you made is better and whatever. But the real back then you could at least say, look, look, Look at the broom. Look at the see see? More money.
Duena:More stuff. These days, you can show proof of more money, more engagement, better lives to almost whoever you like with very little result, which is scary to me. Like I say, a crisis of courage everywhere. And they suggest I don't know what because I don't have it most days either. And I'm sure all of us wake up going like, it's for courage and her bravery and change.
Duena:Let's just make it through. In those days, that's fine. But the days that she has any courage, let us know we have like literally hundreds of just here's three days of things you could do for your life to be better. See my work. Give them a shot.
Duena:Read please what Karen said. Please subscribe to her amazing newsletter on LinkedIn. You'll learn so much. The way I found Karen, that's a good story to tell everyone is because I think Karen is one of the remaining few genuine, intelligent curators out there. I don't know if she manages to read as much as she used to, but back in the day, anything that needed to be known, you could get it out of Karen.
Duena:So please read and buy her book and reach out because she can help you make that change. You so much for coming over Karen and hopefully we'll have Thank you you very much. Thank you.
