S1E3 — The Stories We Tell Ourselves About Performance
Hello everyone and welcome to episode three slash four slash go dirty notes because we haven't really worked out how to schedule things in a way that's intelligent. So we're not sure when we'll be out. We just know it hasn't been as early as we would have liked it to have been.
Dave:Yeah. We've had a few little stumbles along the way, I think it's fair to say.
Duena:So it's a year life?
Dave:Been very, very, very confusing.
Duena:And actually having a job, a day job, one of our things died live. Yeah. Do we have it now? No. We don't.
Duena:Is it gone? Yes. It is. Could you maybe turn some of your lights more towards me? Yes.
Duena:You should. Your ones.
Dave:My
Duena:ones. Can you turn that one?
Dave:That one. Mhmm. And they won't be able to see me at all, surely. Oh, wow. Moving.
Duena:Oh, no.
Dave:So you can't do that?
Duena:No. Okay. Well, we are live, and people don't need to hear about our beautiful faces. So No. We know live what you're
Dave:about. Beautiful.
Duena:Oh my god. They're just beautiful, and then there's us.
Dave:Oh, yeah.
Duena:And here we are. Yeah. They're off.
Dave:Well, there's you. There's you. There's both of us. No. What?
Dave:Just you.
Duena:No. Oh, I suppose it's very good. Anyways Yeah. So can we attempt to backtrack? Because let's face it.
Duena:No one's got we're gonna think we're going to edit this. We're gonna call edit points. We're gonna then think we're gonna come back and make it better or cut out the or get only the funny bits in. And the reality of it is by the end of the night, we won't have done that.
Dave:Yeah. I know. I can cut out the and the and the.
Duena:But they won't, will they? Yeah. One of the things we found out is the AI won't even let us edit it.
Dave:No. It wouldn't let you edit the transcripts.
Duena:Same thing.
Dave:Right.
Duena:What do you mean no? Why would you stop anyways, people don't need to hear they haven't come here from as far as they've come or are going as far as it's going to hear us quarrel from minute number one. I think that we need to time that, otherwise by the end of what the do I need to do by the end of the day? So break your nose or something?
Dave:Nothing people miss the old, like, sitcomers, just an old married couple quarreling away over a pot of bread or something.
Duena:What? You need to you need to put me through a an intense regimen of dolls while we're on vacation.
Dave:Yeah? Yeah. Okay.
Duena:Are they super bad and corny? Are they English or American?
Dave:Oh, the English. You know, mind your language stuff, very racist these days.
Duena:Oh, I don't wanna see racist stuff. Just wanna see the cutesy. Is that like I love Lucy? Anyways Uh-huh. Yet another tangent.
Duena:Stop letting me get on tangents. It's the whole
Dave:process. Tangency there.
Duena:There have been at least three or four tangents of video in everything we've put out from TikTok to LinkedIn. People are sick of us going all kinds of crazy directions. Right. Very soon, we're gonna have to put a map of points with z zagged in between. By we, I mean, mostly me, but
Dave:Well, I thought this is just to give people an insight to my life.
Duena:Right. Do they wanna know or do they wanna know? It's what it is. That's right.
Dave:If the people wanna know. I don't know who's told you that,
Duena:but if it's true and they do wanna know, then we have to find a way to
Dave:Reach those people that want to know about the inside dealings of my life.
Duena:And not lie to them in any which way.
Dave:That's what I do.
Duena:Okay. Well, you cut that one out because it's bullshit. You just wanted to hear yourself talking. It happens to people a lot. But rather if you stay present, this is really important.
Duena:Right?
Dave:Okay.
Duena:So Right. Okay. A couple of things here. So I am personally running I mean, one of my what I would call, like, a natural manic phrase. Right?
Duena:I mean, one of my I have accepted radically accepting what I'm going through as an ADHD person, which is to be super creative and to be we can hear you doing that and I'm sure the camera is going to think they should pick it up so I should probably be louder for the sake of AI. So what we're saying or what I'm saying is I have developed an interest in this. More on this later. Actually, do come back to the shop and to this episode because we have a surprise for you. I have a surprise for everyone actually coming up.
Duena:But also this week, I have been busy launching another podcast in preparation of launching my book as well, and you have been busy launching initiatives internally and launching better practices in in your new in your new line of work. And we've both been busy learning lessons and efficiency lessons and attempting to get all of these things pleasantly out of the way, right? One of the things we're trying to do and I don't know if that comes out of our podcast quite as clearly as Dani should is we're trying to find a way in which we actually are enjoying it at the same time, right? Enjoying work. Working together, discussing these topics, squeezing everything we can out of our surroundings so that we enjoy each other and our topics even more.
Duena:So we did we talk about this on the cast properly before? We tend to if we can We did. Didn't, did we? We didn't talk about the thing that's already on TikTok, which is our notion of stand ups by the sea, which are not standing up. They're actually sitting down Mhmm.
Duena:On a rock normally, on a specific rock overlooking the sea, and we go through our days and up. Yeah. Sometimes What
Dave:can be better?
Duena:Well, many things can be better. We've had this competition much, but I don't
Dave:wanna trigger me to start thinking of what can ever be better than anything else. Right? You know?
Dave:That's That's very true. Yeah. Yeah. We don't wanna be sort in that place.
Duena:No. So, back to our topic kind of. Sometimes we do those kickoffs and those stand ups in that position, which is genuinely, if you can master it and you can calm down your inner critic and wonder if this is right because as a as a professional you were meant to be in an office or not at all, have a suit or not be important stall, drive the right car or not exist as a human being, all of those things are slightly ingrained in us professionals. Taking the time to consciously break those misconceptions in our heads and and really apply ourselves to what does work from anywhere at any time within our boundaries, our limits and our needs mean is the most sustainable thing we can do for ourselves as executives. So we talk about this a lot on on my newsletter, we talk about this a lot on my other podcast which I'm I'm conscious we haven't said much about.
Duena:But do you feel this as well? Are you starting to kind of structure your life around this as a techie more than
Dave:Yeah. I think routine in the life is always good, especially for those who are perhaps undiagnosed. We need to know where we're going, what we're up to, and those things how are days gonna pan out? And I think we get a little early morning walk out down to the coffee shop, grab a coffee, croissant, bacon sandwich or something, sit by the sea, listen to the sea, relax, get our mind wrapped around the day.
Duena:You have making me hyperventilate and you can see this. Like, for our view for our listeners for our listeners, they can't see my faces. This is it started, like, calm enough. But, I mean, now he's really pushing it towards listening to the sea. We're calming down.
Duena:Well, I don't know what the bloody hell we're doing. Because obviously in real life these things make me hyperventilate as well. This is not our allocated time for breathing or meditating. This is our stand up. Can breathe and meditate at our allocated and planned time.
Duena:Uh-huh. Mhmm.
Dave:Why can we not do both?
Duena:I'm This is not the space. We we shall not scare the horses any further with with a with a live Yeah. Match that might end up with one of our noses being broken or out of sync. Yeah. What what do you call it?
Duena:Do we have your nose? Out of joint. Out Out in of joint. White. That's right.
Duena:It it came to me at the same time. We have a collective mind at times. Yeah. I guess we're like those couples that start looking like they're dogs.
Dave:Do you think so?
Duena:We're we're each other's dogs.
Dave:What dog would you be?
Duena:Me, if I could be a dog. If I could be any dog in the Pick
Dave:a dog.
Duena:I'd I'd be I wonder if our viewers can tell. I will put an insert point here, and we'll reveal this in the next episode. Oh. Yeah.
Dave:That's a teaser to keep people coming back.
Duena:Well, they should, really, because I I I think it's self deprecating enough, but not quite.
Dave:Right. Okay.
Duena:So let's see. What do people think I would have chosen to be if I could be a dog? What would you be? Do you know what it is, or should we keep them waiting?
Dave:No. I'm not a very dog person.
Duena:I we know that. Let's not tell them everything. Oh. Let's pretend you are a dog person.
Dave:What's that big reveal?
Duena:I'm pretty sure that our PR company said we have to be a dog person on camera.
Dave:Oh, okay.
Duena:I'm not a person. Pictures with dogs in your life that you could refer to.
Dave:I do, actually.
Duena:Do you? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Did it look like you were happy?
Dave:Do I ever look happy in a photo? You know, that falls
Duena:Oh, awesome. That's a bit mild. Mild. Now we're really going there, aren't we? Yeah.
Duena:I've seen you look very happy in pictures.
Dave:Have you? Oh. Is that after a few beers?
Duena:I've seen you look sober and happy. Sober and happy?
Dave:Yeah. Once or twice?
Duena:Twice. Twice.
Dave:Oh, wait. You're not asking for an exact number.
Dave:No. No. No. You're like, so can we just We got upset. No.
Dave:No. No. Can we have a concrete example? Yeah. Of where I was
Duena:Now we can insert some pictures. In fact. Fact. Fact. In fact.
Duena:I have a great idea. I have read or I have I have I I don't know where I get information from this is. I need to say stop saying I've seen or I've read or let me be very clear. Nobody cares. I have gathered this piece of potentially crap information from the internet and it is around it's very very rarely complete crap.
Duena:I'm you know I'm fortunate enough to put two and two together fast enough so it's probably slightly a more informed opinion but it might still be very crap. And it has to do with the fact that it to grow your audience which I know nothing of you have to promise people to get to a certain when you want to get to a certain amount of subscribers they will you will do something or other. It's always taken me as it's always taken me? Always struck me. It's always struck me.
Duena:It has always struck me as absolutely insane. Like, why would I, with my contribution of becoming one of your followers, add myself to this goal? It isn't something I can give you consistently. How how is my presence going to help us get there faster? Do you know what I mean?
Duena:So it's one thing if you need likes or whatever, Fine. Whatever. Mhmm. But if you need just subscribers, you just adding yourself to the pile doesn't necessarily mean someone else will whatsoever. So there's no real amplifying effect unless I'm retweeting you or less something I have some some interaction with you.
Duena:So what I'm what I put it to you is happening is.
Dave:Yeah. But surely those engines, when you search for A Tech podcast, must say these are the most popular ones by terms of subscribers.
Duena:Amount of I can completely understand why you should have many subscribers. This is not my point of contention. You're missing the point. My point of condition is why would you, as a subscriber care if I get one or five or 50, and why would my presence feel like it's adding to the point or not? Anyways
Dave:No. I don't think
Duena:that Happy to explain.
Dave:Why people subscribe to podcast. People subscribe to podcast they don't have to go hunting to try and find the next episode.
Duena:Exactly. So why would I try and incentivize you by telling you if I have enough subscribers, I'll show my tits, which oh god. That went left. Good grief. I'm pretty sure that's what people say on Ladies
Dave:and gentlemen
Duena:There's no promise if that we haven't discussed.
Dave:This podcast.
Duena:When I said that was If
Dave:you want that to happen,
Duena:that could happen in the actual I said that there was going
Dave:to be
Duena:a surprise. I did not mean this whatsoever.
Dave:People antech after dark.
Duena:Yeah. Okay. And when we hit
Dave:a 100,000 subscribers
Dave:100,000.
Dave:Of paying subscribers, I'm gonna show you my tits. It's not a problem. But then we're gonna have amazing tits to show.
Dave:If we can move them all from from People and Tech into OnlyFans.
Duena:Yeah. A 100,000 subscribers in OnlyFans, then I showed them my tits. Before then, no. Yeah. Okay.
Duena:Come on now. Let's be serious for a second. So wait. Wait. Wait.
Duena:So, again, what vested interest do you as a new subscriber have in reaching a certain subscriber mile mile milestone? Right? We've just discussed it. None. No.
Dave:No. You've got no incentive to
Duena:do No incentive. That's exactly what I'm contending.
Dave:Other than to find out when the next show is done.
Duena:Right. So that's a different incentive. It's not for my pets. It's for, if you know what I mean. If we're not shaking the metaphor or whatever.
Duena:Say we walked away from this metaphor and all that AI could clean it up.
Dave:Right.
Duena:Let's leave that why people get to a certain number. However, if we do get to a thousand subscribers, I will treat you all to not one, not two, not five, but 10 different pictures of mister Dave Valentine happy. Don't tell him no.
Dave:I don't think I'm always incentivized by your tits.
Duena:But That's a 100,000.
Dave:Anyway Tits done.
Duena:Right. Can we stop talking about these things? Yes.
Dave:Subscribers done.
Duena:Oh, god. Everyone subscribed.
Dave:Been bothering you this week, my love, in terms of your secret society?
Duena:In terms of my secret side, listen to the disparaging letter, was this because I'm a techie and I consider all of these other things to be a bit silly? Is that what you're doing? Are you impression managing towards your technology affiliation in public? Is that what you're doing? No.
Dave:I'm just being the techie.
Duena:I know.
Dave:It's like, what is this touchy feely stuff? We don't wanna
Duena:do it. Are you trying to get your nose broken then?
Dave:That's about the third time you flicked me with that. This way
Duena:Yeah. Yeah.
Dave:First time with evidence, but, you know
Duena:This is the first time with evidence? Yeah. My hair is absolutely mental on. I shouldn't have looked. Right.
Dave:So
Duena:Were you giving me the opportunity to plug what I've done this week? Because they you were I am taking it.
Dave:I am straight on.
Duena:Let me tell you why I don't believe in your opportunities anymore. This is of me managing to get us into the software, which you hadn't been capable of, it has been solely my contribution.
Dave:Okay. But that didn't happen.
Duena:Pretty sure it happened. But it didn't happen. I have it on camera.
Dave:No. What actually happened last time we attempted to do this was that the video mic on the laptop was used stopped audacity recording left and right channels. So it's coming through the same channel, which therefore means
Duena:It's come through the same channels, he says.
Dave:Software we could be cutting it with.
Dave:He's getting all corporate in.
Dave:Where the video how to line up the video?
Duena:It's getting all. It's come from the same channels. From no. It's come from different channels.
Dave:Different channels. Less than one.
Dave:Said that. Yes. I feel
Duena:like that's a corporate politics threat.
Dave:But don't worry, ladies and gentlemen. In post edit, we'll be coming at you in glorious stereo. I will not be coming out of your right ear. She will not be coming out of your left ear. We'll both be coming out in glorious stereo.
Duena:Well, surely you need to cut this coming out a bit.
Dave:Okay.
Dave:I just feel like it's so unokay.
Dave:Is
Duena:it? I mean, there's so much wrong with everything here. If we give this to someone, right, and we're like, what can you make out of this? They'd be like, squirrel. There's nothing no to value here.
Duena:You guys haven't taught them anything. You haven't told them anything. Haven't really even went through what the flip you've been doing.
Dave:I know. I've I've given you opportunities. Yeah. You just haven't taken it.
Duena:So did they put that down?
Dave:There have been opportunities that have been dropped.
Duena:On this podcast, there'll be opportunities.
Dave:But let's get serious.
Dave:Let's get serious.
Duena:The faster we get serious, the faster you're gonna take me what?
Dave:We're gonna go salsa dancing. Salsa. Salsa. Potentially.
Duena:In a new potentially dancing. Potentially salsa. In a new place we've never been to before.
Dave:But it's very cute. We like it. It looks like a nice place, isn't it? We've been past it a few times. Which is And we're always looking to go there.
Dave:It's really nice.
Duena:The only reason we know we've been past it is because we realized
Dave:very seconds ago that we've been past it.
Dave:Okay.
Duena:Okay. People wouldn't understand. They would have had to have been there. And quite frankly, if any of these people listening to this would have been there, that would have been quite scary.
Dave:Yeah.
Duena:Although, you know, we live in a small town, not quite that small, but we are trying to be a little bit more considerate with our information online. No less because I've been notoriously data comfortable.
Dave:Data comfortable.
Duena:And What does that mean? Unparanoid and
Dave:Unparanoid. But you you're definitely unparanoid.
Duena:And I have had CSOs even go as far as call me data promiscuous. Data promiscuous? Yeah. Yeah. Anyways, we don't wanna go that, do we?
Duena:So
Dave:I mean, that's a lie. I've never heard that before.
Duena:Have you never? No. I mean, I seem to annoy corporate structures a lot. I don't know if that you've done that in your in your career before. I don't feel like you have.
Dave:I don't believe to the same extent
Duena:No. That you don't talk to them. I don't believe anyone has any to tell the tale. No. Right.
Duena:Back to what we were saying. Which words? Which one were we saying? This is what we need. This is the only thing we need from AI.
Duena:Some some some part of AI to go, this this, ma'am, this is what you were saying. Hey, Siri. What was I saying? Because you know what the blip I was saying.
Dave:You were saying about going out in a small town. You're saying you're taking promiscuous.
Duena:That's okay. I
Dave:don't want
Duena:him to feel bad. Don't want him to feel bad. I don't wanna train him badly. He'll be with me for years. He could be what the machines come at me through.
Duena:You never know. You never you just never know. It's probably wrong. It's like the same reason I'm an an agnostician, not that. An agnosticist.
Duena:An agnostic. That's the one I am.
Dave:Oh,
Duena:yeah. Because you never know.
Dave:You just never know.
Duena:You just never know.
Dave:That's the definition of an agnostic.
Duena:Oh, do we have to do this now? Should we do politics as well? So should we talk about politics? No. What our car preferences, our sex preferences, our families, what else should we talk about?
Dave:No. No. Look, baby.
Duena:My love is what you call me on air, not baby.
Dave:My love.
Duena:No. You do what should you call me on air? Baby my love. Baby love. Love.
Duena:Exactly.
Dave:Look. We've just gone over the twenty minutes mark.
Duena:Have we? We
Dave:have We've just got over the twenty minutes markup.
Duena:Yes. This is our favorite. Let's do it. Our favorite special one. Now.
Duena:Right. Oh. But We got them nothing. No. The zero content yet twenty minutes in the can.
Dave:But we still have all these gorgeous ideals, don't you? That we're gonna train the world in people and tech. You're gonna talk people.
Duena:I'm talk us. They'll sit there for twenty minutes, wait for us to get to the fucking point, and then go, like, fuck them. I know. I don't think they should do that. Think they should take their their time to get to know us a little bit because we're gonna get there.
Duena:But that's how we're gonna talk about. We can't be talking about us continuously. That's not a challenge. No. In all seriousness, people.
Duena:Okay. Let's get serious as well. Let me tell you what. We've actually, believe it or not, have come up with a couple of ideas as to what we wanna see happening on some of our episodes. Right?
Duena:Some segments. One of them is gonna be called the CTO Brack Corner. So we're waiting for you guys to tell us which of you guys has done some heroics last week. What piece of code have you just praised or witnessed someone create? What procedure you thought you'll never see happening has actually been kept in one of your many scrum meetings.
Duena:What is it that impressed you? Right? Is that what we wanna hear in that small segment? So just Absolutely. Write it in.
Duena:Send it to Dave, not to me. I wouldn't be able to quite understand it. So Yep. Where can they find you, Dave?
Dave:About your best developers.
Duena:Yeah. Yeah. Just a brag a week. A brag a week. Yeah.
Duena:Short brag a week. And when can they reach you, Dave, to do that?
Dave:You can reach me at dave@peopleandtech.co.uk.
Duena:Right. Simple. You could probably also reach him at contact or even dave at dave ballet.
Dave:Oh, dave. Yeah. You could do. You could look and check that out.
Duena:Yeah. What is that? Say it again.
Dave:Dave@daveballey.co.uk.
Duena:Yeah. Dave@daveballey.co.uk, dave@peoplenottech.com, or obviously any UK, we don't have com. We don't have com. We don't. Shh.
Duena:We don't havecom. Honestly, I'm not I don't know. Some people just move slowly, you know, before they get things. So do we own humanwork.com?
Dave:That's enough. Let me
Duena:just check. Yeah.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Duena:You're checking it now live?
Dave:Oh, yeah. I am checking it now live.
Duena:Mind, this is only live for us and no life for anyone else, but we are wasting people's time. So we better
Dave:We are. Just We
Duena:better give them something.
Dave:Carry on with what
Duena:you're saying. So outside of what you're figuring this out now, I did want to announce I did do something of audio last week, so you guys are are welcome to take a listen to that if you have the time, which is I've realized at long last that my message is has to be very, very differentiated between the tech community and the HR community for very many reasons. The challenges are different. The wording is different. The understanding that's necessary is different.
Duena:And even the product we're making at People Notech ought to be slightly different favors of both these needs. For that and in order for us to emerge us in the very middle of where the pain is to get this the products we're making at PeopleNotek into the hands of the tech keys that needed it, the developers that needed it, to the teams that will be sped up and become agile because of these products, what we found we have to do often is practically tackle the entire human death of the organization. And very quickly our efforts sometimes get stuck into this, what we perceive to be a fracture between the mandate and the level of understanding and learning of the HR department and the mandate and level of understanding and learning of the DevOps community. And when these two in the middle don't quite come together, there's no cohesion in the culture. And we've observed this time and time again.
Duena:And what happens is that have I went over time? No.
Dave:No. No. No. Not at all.
Duena:So what happens is that people fall in the middle. The the the human that just ends up all encompassing, it goes over the DevOps that had great intentions, it goes over the HR that had great intentions. And my kind of call to ours has always been in people before tech and it will be again in tech led culture and it is on my TikTok channels and what I'm trying to buy the way now actually bridge with my LinkedIn channels in an over experiment that's going to continue all over the summer actually because I'm thinking of doing a summer of creation. So you're gonna join me in that. So everyone's gonna see loads of us more than they would like to have.
Duena:Anyhow, back to the point again, the way that we're going to start chipping at that is I believe with two different messages. So if we are going to have enough messaging from the HR community, unfortunately that's going to have to be in a closed, very close need, very protective, very type of hidden and anonymous space so that these professionals can tell us their genuine pain points. I can't talk to my leadership because they won't give me the the the respect, the support, the money, the time. These are the things that I should say to them before they listen. This is how we can get the human work inside the organization.
Duena:And this is what I've learned from DevOps. And this is what I know from agile and tech they need. That's when we're gonna get somewhere. So that's why we've created this called the secret society of human work or the secret society of human work advocates. You can find it as a pod on all major distribution channels and you can also find us talking about it sometimes.
Duena:If you think you're a human advocate listening to this from the tech community, come join us as well. You don't have to be anonymous, you can use your real name. Just if you know you're doing the human org all day every day, if you know you're from the DevOps side of things, from the Agile side of things, from any side of things where the human work has become your main work because everything else has fallen into place already, come join us in the secret society of human work. This is what happens when you give me a second.
Dave:Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Definitely. Definitely.
Dave:And for those who really are interested and, you know, our Patreon pack is out there. I'm sure they want to. Mhmm. Once once we move to OnlyFans, it's gonna come. Yeah.
Duena:This is gonna be we're gonna talk about organizational issues with my tits out. Is that what you're promising?
Dave:.Com, which we haven't got. Yeah. $2,695.
Duena:To buy it? To buy it. That's not a problem. What about humandebt.com?
Dave:Okay. Let's see who's
Duena:got You did tell me to cover you while you were getting in. Yeah. And I did for a while there. What was that? A minute or two of my
Dave:That was that was good.
Duena:Was it good? Yeah. Did you think we covered all the things?
Dave:Nothing we did.
Duena:So if people wanna find us, what do they find us? People and tech? People and tech. People and tech.uk. People and tech in on on all major social media channels.
Duena:Yep. People and tech on duerablomstrom.com. Mhmm. People and tech on daveballet.com. And, obviously, on all the major podcast distribution channels and this YouTube channel that you're seeing this thing on, obviously.
Dave:Yes.
Duena:Right?
Dave:Yep.
Duena:Again, nothing of value other than we've launched that to put the social side of let's discuss how to move HR and agile forward. And we have also gotten a lot of conversation out of what's happened to you. Do you wanna what's happening? Are you saying you're not No. I don't
Dave:like, I've just had one of the most massive, coincidences that can be. As we've been talking about, peopleandtech.com
Duena:Yeah.
Dave:Went to who is this is the company that owns it. Guess who owns humandebt.com? No. I do. The same company.
Dave:When did they register them? 2019.
Duena:That's a bit upsetting. We should leave this in there and go chat to our guys.
Dave:Let's see. They want oh my gosh. Oh, this our our Patreon backers will have to be turning pennies after pennies after pennies Don't allow this domain.
Duena:Can you please make a note of the fact that we have promised I'm going to reveal what my dog is.
Dave:Yes. I want
Duena:What is it, though? Go on.
Dave:The sale price for humandebt.com Yeah. I mean, presently stands at $16,295.
Duena:I'm not surprised. Yes. But shall we check when what date it's been registered?
Dave:Yeah. I said that. 2019.
Duena:Yeah. But when 2019?
Dave:11/23/2019.
Duena:Okay. Would you like to find out something fun?
Dave:Yeah. Is that when you first registered that?
Duena:That's absolutely irrelevant. However, you carry on talking, and, meanwhile, I'll find something fun for you. Uh-oh. That's
Dave:you really put me on the spot now. I mean
Duena:Did you tell people what you've been doing last week? You were gonna tell them.
Dave:Yeah. So what have I been doing last week? It's been an interesting week. We've had some ups. We've had some downs.
Dave:We've had any number of good conversations around tuning the organization, understanding what the organization does, lots of talk around. Still, again, mainly, you know, the tickets which we're getting through. They need to be polished up and understood and be investable so that those developers know what to do. And we're putting a lot of effort into automating our testing. All sounds relatively simple and knowable and doable and done, things we've done in different environments and different companies for a couple of different years.
Dave:Mhmm. But, like, when you come into a new place, trying to get it instilled from the ground up, presents, you know, a few challenges.
Duena:Right. I'm listening as ever.
Dave:As ever. What do you mean as ever?
Duena:More so than ever.
Dave:Okay. Yeah. So, yeah, we've got a few, you know, manual QA people who have who are you are, yeah, testing the releases after drop. But to scale the org, we need to, you know, automate all of this. I think everyone is How
Duena:horrible can I be to you? We haven't discussed any of this. You you know people, we are so ad hoc and so tired and so beyond the max. None of this is scripted. This, you can be sure of.
Dave:Yeah. Absolutely none. This is scripted as you can probably tell by the
Duena:Unfortunately for you.
Dave:Yeah. Well, half hour of ambulings and putting Dave on the spot.
Duena:No no one did. You could have went, all of last week, I've learned about React versus Angular or all of last week I've been thinking about whether DevOps pipes can be run end to end or they and they depend on culture or tooling. You could have told me anything. You could have talked about the is it Martin Fowler who's now written an entire team topologies? This is how you could use them new thing and bless him
Dave:I have not seen that.
Duena:Math, Matt, and and and Matthew, they were, like, all over obviously, who would not be chuffed? That's, like, the grandfather of technology, as I understand it, who kind of agrees that team topologies matter.
Dave:Yeah.
Duena:So that to me was a was a big
Dave:high. Yeah. And I think over last weekend as well.
Duena:Yeah. That was an Oh, amazing god. We don't have to make it a forty five minute thing now. Yes. Really quickly.
Duena:And before that we go to the big one, let's also get in, and I'll let you tell the whole story, but let's also get in the fact that we are thinking of getting in a 10 drop in segment, which is typically going to be something we start very much ad hoc in the middle of other conversations we might have, and just ask people to jump on here, give us that one answer again, we put it in the can, we get it into an episode, and that's because we have an amazing array of astounding people we kind of know on personal basis, people that are now quite, you know important big we realize that people look up to them they're influencers and they're technologists and they're you know humans with valuable ideas they don't have time to line up an episode we don't want to hear them for an entire episode let's face it we're quarreling for too long to do that So you're gonna have this ten minutes drop ins. Already a couple of really interesting names that we've lined up. And so just make sure you tune in for that if nothing else. And then we're also gonna have two things, two big episodes that behind you is why I'm reading with that much ease what the deal is.
Duena:But we're going to have a a bit of of a blind react, and this is the blind react of the week. Remember we said and right after this blind react, Dave is gonna give us a long story of what happened what what new re re re re re re and the reason I'm saying re will come in handy in a moment. What re re re re landed thought has he had? What really, really revelation has he had? And remember, I said re, so this would have already tipped some of you off as to who do I mean they've spent the weekend phoning over.
Duena:Yeah. Because that you know, some some some some bells will ring. But we'll keep you wondering while we tell you about this blind react. Right? You wanna hear it?
Duena:It's gonna be a jingle.
Dave:I wanna hear that. This blind. Yeah.
Duena:Blind react jingle. I mean, let's face it.
Dave:Ain't nobody gonna put anything in here. Right? Let's face it.
Duena:Let's be honest. Right? This was not a blind drag, by the way. It was a blind drag for real. The earlier one he put me in front of, which is it seems that people have been using my my work for quite a while.
Duena:I'm gonna figure out for how long. But that's alright. I would use them. My I When did you try multi That I we'll check that out in a second. That's not the
Dave:plan react we need to have on Oh. Camera.
Duena:However, meanwhile, in blind react the way, I'm gonna send you a link. I'm gonna send Dave a link. Do we have a chat window here in between us? Yes. We ought to do you wanna do you wanna pull it up for me, baby?
Duena:Okay. Oh, god. No one's here for us to have any kind of disgusting banter. What if our parents are listening to this? But look.
Duena:My parents are listening to this. Yep. Can I just say I love you? But for for for our for our listeners, they're gone, both of them. So I doubt they are listening to this.
Duena:What are we doing now? I'm sending you something. Yeah?
Dave:You are sending me something for blind react.
Duena:Trying to think if I finish the last step of how I wanted to. Stop it. Okay. Do me a favor first. Pull up our TikTok, please.
Duena:Okay.
Dave:Watch this, everyone. Tick tock. Tick tock makes my day.
Duena:Oh, it makes his day. Every day makes his day. He's Hang on. Is on it all day, every day. Wow.
Duena:He can hear me so much better now, which will make it for so much worse of, oh, you can't because you're you're off. You're you're out. Can you hear me better
Dave:now? Alright.
Duena:Oh my god. I can hear me better.
Dave:Okay.
Duena:I can buy myself flowers.
Dave:Okay. So That's fine.
Duena:My hair needs to ache.
Dave:Which one are we looking at for the blind reveal?
Duena:Yeah. Can you tell me while you're looking at these, are you looking at ours or mine?
Dave:I'm just looking at the following, which I'm not following them in it. Do want me to follow you? Well, I'm following you, but do want me to just go directly to yours?
Duena:Or Yeah. Go go directly to mine.
Dave:Yeah. Okay.
Duena:Yeah. Now do you have mine in front of your face? Yeah. Yeah. Can you see yeah.
Duena:Can you see one of them or several of them that have a bunch of hash tags?
Dave:Yeah? Right.
Duena:What would you say?
Dave:Experiment. Yes. Not that one.
Duena:Yeah. No. Not that one. No. Which one of all the hashtags you see in all of my videos would you say was the most successful over the last two weeks?
Dave:One of the hashtags in all of your videos was the most successful over the past two weeks.
Duena:Your week. It would be on a screen. It wouldn't be difficult. Filters experiment?
Dave:No. No. Is it work talk? No. HD talk?
Dave:No. Human mind? No. Bee Plantic pod?
Duena:Are you really just reading them all? Fuck is wrong with you? No. I was asking to just read them in a lie. Do you have no idea is what you're saying?
Dave:I have no idea. New or spicy?
Duena:Human mark. Did I say human mark? Multiple times. You annoy me.
Dave:Take lead to culture.
Duena:You annoy me.
Dave:You got them wrong. I don't
Duena:know how you knew that. Yeah. Authentic leadership. You shut up. Shut up.
Duena:You're literally like, shut up. Just shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Waited for the last one.
Duena:Okay? You're on purpose. You've avoided it. On purpose, people are gonna think we we've, like, rehearsed this. It looks improbable that anyone for real has this amount of miscommunication and they think that this mad they love or capable of doing a real life podcast.
Duena:Okay? Right. This is not comedy. This is real life. If they laugh now they will laugh.
Dave:At me.
Duena:At us.
Dave:No. At me. Us. Not with me. Us.
Dave:At me. Us. Alright.
Duena:Neurospicy at work.
Dave:Neurospicy at work.
Duena:Neurospicy at work.
Dave:Oh, that was the most successful I had.
Duena:Not only that, but it was successful on LinkedIn as well. Oh. And not only that, but I had people privately reach out and say how big of a deal it is that I used it on LinkedIn because they've been meaning to and they were afraid they were going to
Dave:be ridiculed.
Duena:Laughed at.
Dave:Laughed at. Yeah. Well done, baby.
Duena:But why No.
Dave:Seriously. That's big grounds, isn't it?
Duena:No. But why? Why? How can it be big grounds? The world needed yours truly with my five followers.
Duena:So sorry, you're 100,000 that I need to Yeah. Right? I mean, not possible, right? The world cannot be waiting for me to say we need to discuss neurodiversity at work.
Dave:No, but it seems like the world is.
Duena:Or being neurospicy at work. What's the what's the problem with that?
Dave:Mhmm. What do you mean by neurospicy?
Duena:Just kind of I think I'm hoping this is what the term means, by the way. Never really checked it triple times. I'm hoping it's the all encompassing term in my view. It's the umbrella before blind react to my opinion yeah. It's that it is the all encompassing umbrella term for everyone that is on the spectrum of neurodivergence of some type, right?
Duena:Whether they are autistic purely or ADHD purely or they have sensorial issues or they have none of those but they have other types of anxiety disorders or they have BPD or they have anyone who has a brain or it's the emotional system that works in a different fashion than that that we consider to be quote unquote typical or quote unquote normal. That sounds horrible. Yeah. Right? Anyone who is divergent is neurospicy to me.
Duena:I don't know if that's a correct definition, is it?
Dave:I think so. Yeah.
Dave:Yeah?
Dave:Yeah. That's a good definition. Yeah.
Duena:Isn't that a nice thing? I came up with something that's not really tapped. Yeah. People are saying they're connecting to it.
Dave:Uh-huh.
Duena:And you know how I had that entire debate about how ADHD people are all just about ideas and not quite executioners like we'd like them to be and it made me get all up in arms and I have this entire TikTok debate about LinkedIn debate about whether it's valuable to have only ideas and blah blah blah blah blah. I just thought you know what this is one of those things. I just had an idea. Yes it's a thing that people resonate with but let's face it I can't be taking the seventh thread for me to have as a crusade. I'm already maybe we'll make it part of the human work one day, right?
Duena:But I mean this cannot be this cannot stand, right? I can't be doing it. And I'm sure someone somewhere is taking dealing with it. So I'll be happy to lend my name to them. Like for instance, just the other day I had spent some time researching multipotentialites and the plus side of ADHD and how we should absolutely spend time.
Duena:There are some amazing organizations over there that are dealing with it and I thought, oh my god, I'll go talk to them and I still want to do that. But here's a difference between that and that. Yeah? Do you, if you get, if you see a charge on our company card that is for an unknown domain, Maybe you should go to neurospicyatwork.com or and kind of find out more about it or even go to neurospicyatwork.org and find out what you can do as a company to actually start getting the value out of the neurospicy people that you have around yourself.
Dave:Have you been registering domains?
Duena:I have been registering domains.
Dave:I have got a slightly stuck I don't know how to start some of
Duena:the shit. But by the time this episode comes out, this will be a thriving community of neurodiverse people at work. Been saying on and on this is an idea let's do this. I've been saying to people in podcast and no one did anything so I did. Guess who?
Duena:Miss is already doing all the other things. Yeah. That is how insane I am, yes. But it wasn't needed, yes. Is it there now, yes.
Duena:NeuroSpicyAtWork, come join us, let's make this happen.
Dave:NeuroSpicyAtWork.
Duena:Right. There is one other podcast I wanna dwell into called neurodivergence at work and I kid you not that is the only other one. I was absolutely stunned when I looked through Spotify. There's almost nothing to do with how neurodivergence is an accommodation we should even discuss in the workplace. Forget is it something we should harness and value.
Dave:Yeah.
Duena:Okay. I'll calm down.
Dave:You calm down on that one.
Duena:Yes.
Dave:Right.
Duena:That's the blind eye. Look at his face. Did everybody register No. In
Dave:Very good, baby.
Duena:It was while you were aligning the same team. Yeah. And I mean, look, it's not finished. I mean, that community needs to be put in place and grown or whatever. So does the other community.
Duena:So does every other community. I'm not the person who's going to be growing those. Yeah? Because I'm just it's not me.
Dave:It would be interesting to know, actually. I think we do have a suspicion, and let's just say it's not being backed up with scientific data. How many people in the tech world are neurodivergent?
Duena:One in four One in four. Is the data we have.
Dave:Oh, I didn't know we had data.
Duena:Oh, we have data. One in And I think the the only data I really do have that I wanna drive again into, I've I've I've read it for one of my books, but don't remember which one and don't remember exact data and I know it's evolved since then. But the data is from, I'm starting to sound like one of those, people who very quickly are trying to throw enough references in there to be taken seriously. That is bloody bizarre and sick. Anyhow, was the Microsoft data because Microsoft is one of the very few companies that has discussed neurodivergence as a value, right?
Dave:Very true, they do.
Duena:So we need to go back on that data. I'll do that for our I'll plaster that all over neuro spicy at work if it is any good I'll ask them to sponsor us. Here you are Microsoft I'll wave come talk to me and sponsor neurodiverse at work. By sponsor I mean take the bloody idea and execution it. You have the systems and the people to execution it.
Duena:Microsoft, don't leave it undone because Duena Blomstone is neurodivergent.
Dave:Wow. I mean, that's a sales pitch right there and then.
Duena:No. It's a it's a public gambit.
Dave:Public gambit.
Duena:If Microsoft doesn't wanna hear us talking about how to help neurodiverse people at work, us authentic leaders who care and love Microsoft as a place to understand your work culture, then we have problems.
Dave:Okay. Okay. So what other companies are doing stuff around neurodivergency other than Microsoft?
Duena:I don't remember anyone else right now, but I'm sure there are many. Yeah? I'm sure there are. Let's take that as a homework until next episode. Which
Dave:other companies are doing stuff in the neurodivergent field?
Duena:And and in that, let's let's differentiate. Is that what? To help people access work? Is that people to thrive at work? Is that to help themselves garner the value from neurodiverse people.
Dave:Isn't it all part of the same thing?
Duena:I think it is. If your name is
Dave:people, new neurodiverse people thrive. If you help anyone thrive at work, you're getting the best you're getting more out of them.
Duena:Oh, not only that, but I love how our title goes both ways. It's not only Neurospicy at Work. It's us that are Neurospicy at Work, but also what Neurospiciness at Work gives you as an organization.
Dave:It's very in-depth.
Duena:It's not. It really isn't. They're all very simple shits, but people won't understand things unless they're in frameworks that they have seen before. When you start connecting frameworks and throwing the bigger topics at people, that's when it starts breaking in my experience. Off to read the most unlikely of authors and of books for the weekend.
Duena:Do you want to know what it is?
Dave:Go on in.
Duena:What? You know, I really should remember the lady's name but I'll put that on my neurodivergence and just kind of inserted in the notes of this episode, or you guys can see in the Mhmm. In this clip here. But I believe her name is Kane, and I am ashamed that I've never found her before. But it's an amazing lady that has made some big big moves, some big big changes, and then has returned back to the idea of why if you ignore politics, it's going to eat you.
Duena:People politics
Dave:is going to eat you.
Duena:Yeah. I mean, company politics, obviously. Right. She's
Dave:about the Johnson's in the world.
Duena:She's kind of saying I believe she's saying it, and I have no idea. I've literally just had ten minutes looking at her and enough to send her a very creepy message saying I'm having a crush on her, and I'm gonna buy her books. Look. I get those a few times a week, and no one died. And it was genuine, I think she can tell you I'm mental but genuine.
Duena:And her message I think is more towards I've been the corporate level rebel, I've then had to go back and take these people by the toxic policy and by the toxic politics playing them at their own power game, I guess sort of message. Again don't call me, I might be wildly wrong. I'm happy to come back and say see, we need this place as an accountancy place. Use this as your accountancy reading place. What will you commit to read until next episode?
Dave:What will I commit to? It's actually your draft.
Duena:Of my book? Yes. You can't read that. Of course. Oh.
Duena:It's secret.
Dave:I got some Word documents because you wrote it. Yes. It hasn't been published, but that mean doesn't mean I can't read it, does it?
Duena:No. But at this rate at which we go live, it could have very well been published by the time this goes live.
Dave:I know. I I am a slow reader, but we've
Duena:it How long tell people. No. If I if I let's keep that for the paid version of this. And it is quite the nagging ladies and gentlemen. Ask us how long has it taken mister Ballantyne to read my second book?
Duena:Was it my third book? Anyways, people before tech. How long has it taken mister Ballantyne to read it? Answer in next episode together with what kind of dog I should be.
Dave:And how long it's gonna take him to read tech big culture.
Duena:Yeah. Let's place bets on that. And how long until we get enough subscribers to show you 10 pictures of him looking happy?
Dave:Yeah. And how long before we get enough subscribers so we can move it off to only fans?
Duena:For a stretch goal, how about can he look happy with a broken nose?
Dave:That is a stretch goal.
Duena:It's a stretch goal or a flat goal depending on where I'm not interested finding those things right now, maybe. Right. Alright. We'll leave you with that. There's gonna be no violence on the country.
Duena:We're planning on an amazing weekend that that tends to disgust and annoy our children and our non fans.
Dave:I wasn't even allowed to talk about what I found last weekend.
Duena:Oh my god. The big important thing. Let's let's stretch this for another six minutes. Can you do it in six minutes?
Dave:I think I can.
Duena:Go. Last weekend, it was an amazing time for agile and re re re reconnecting with its heart.
Dave:Yes. Absolutely. So I have been doing Agile for I don't know how many years. Right? And that is you turn up to a retro, you turn up to a planet, and you turn up to some form of a finance session, you turn up to x, y, and zed, and you move some tickets around in the board, and then you go into Jira, and then you come in on a Jira ticket and do a PR, and then
Duena:And that is?
Dave:Yeah. And that's all bull. That's not agile. That is not agile. I had a revelation.
Dave:That's agile by heart.
Duena:A revelation.
Dave:Revelation.
Duena:There's a reason I keep insisting on this re. Do you remember what his talk starts with?
Dave:Yes.
Duena:I'll leave you with it. But
Dave:we was watching an Alice Cockburn video. Mhmm. The heart of agile. Mhmm. It was filmed at a Swedish university or Swedish bank?
Dave:Or
Duena:No. It was the Swedish tax office.
Dave:Okay. The Swedish tax office.
Duena:Long, long intro about Yeah. For three minutes. I did say this to Alice, but that's not It
Dave:needs cutting. It
Duena:needs cutting. I know that the last thing
Dave:know visionaries to talk about that.
Duena:Right. Exactly. Imagine visionaries hearing from others, oh, you should do better on this one video. You're so lucky I have this video online. Okay?
Duena:Absolutely. It took me an act of God in six months. Shut up. We probably just irritated him or I did.
Dave:Okay. Yeah. But, anyway, Dwayne has been talking since we've met. Alright? About agile, the heart of agile, how agile is a thought process, agile in your body, in your soul, in your mind.
Dave:And I was like, but we moved tickets. We moved tickets around and we put
Duena:He wasn't. Tickets. Wasn't. He never he never believed that.
Dave:We need to create more swim lanes, and we need to do stuff like that. That's agile.
Duena:No. I don't believe you ever believed that, though, in your heart of hearts. You believe there's more to it.
Dave:Yeah.
Duena:You had a feeling that it will take another level than
Dave:what you were was that level? It was a few beers. It was a few beers. I'm watching Alistair Cuthbert
Duena:I don't think it was.
Dave:Talk about the heart of agile. Right. And then it was just like, oh my god.
Duena:I have had the revelation, and we are on camera still.
Dave:Okay. What was your revelation?
Duena:Do you wanna hear it?
Dave:I haven't even finished my revelation.
Duena:I didn't hear that revelation. No.
Dave:Yes. But, no, he was the way he was describing problem focused thinking and yeah. It was just like, oh, wow. I get it. I absolutely a 100% get it.
Dave:And my love, I'm sorry that I've not been able to hear your hear you through.
Duena:This is like a Moana moment.
Dave:I haven't seen you before.
Duena:I I mean, we're joking now, but there were
Dave:some real tears over this at the wing.
Dave:There were some real tears. There's some real anger.
Duena:Nothing like rejection rejection, sensitivity, dysphoria connected to agile. Let me tell you. That's a whole other level of
Dave:Yeah. But, basically, it all sums up to I've been telling you for years, u m f, that there is more to agile.
Duena:I mean, as you would all expect two things here. First of all, I will I will take the opportunity to defend him and say, as you would all expect, he has been not only hearing me, but kind of non hearing me anymore because it's all in repeat after a while. Believe me, I get tired of hearing myself. So I'm not blaming you from that perspective whatsoever. No one wants to hear the same definition over and over again.
Duena:But you know what? I don't actually believe that it isn't till the last year that the definition has or the last two years that the definition has landed with me properly. And that is because I've kind of accepted my destiny of forever shall be the mad woman that insists we do the human work at work. Yeah. And I've left it there.
Duena:I've left it simmer with me, it is what it is. I'll never As
Dave:you're still.
Duena:No, it's what I need to do simply because as you know I've went through a journey of exploring other revenues and the other long term revenues are still there. I'll never be anything else but a product person at heart. So anytime that we can leave this conversation and we can talk only about product and how what I understand by product and what you understand by product, that'd be great because that's the middle ground. Mhmm.
Dave:We do need to find a middle ground somewhere,
Duena:mate. But this is what I'm saying. It's I think and
Dave:and finding that middle ground together, we can make magic. We'd be like the 18.
Duena:No one's let me finish, though, so it's not gonna be magic. You don't even let me get my
Dave:If I don't interrupt you.
Duena:Point one, forget point two. So point one was the fact that you didn't buy it for that long shows that, It wasn't you know no.
Dave:No. I wasn't I was buying it. I wasn't even sure there was a shop.
Duena:Okay. But here's the other thing I would say to you, and this is what I the revelation the big revelation I had, and I'm I'm leaving your excuse and the story in favor of this revelation because I think it's quite big is I know this intimately and I wouldn't have known this about anyone else so perhaps this is something we can apply to others or use as a hypothesis in our work. For those of you that don't know and I don't know why anyone would miss any part of my biography, I run a software technology company that that kind of spends time figuring out how to make the absolute best amount of human interaction called the human work for teams. And so maybe this is a hypothesis we can make a thing at the intersection of science and technology. It's not science fiction but so far right?
Duena:It's not fiction, it's science and technology and we will always accept the fact that there will be accusers and people who are doubted and people who will be unpleased with us coming back to the iterative things that they had thought that they had moved their rhetoric from.
Dave:And it's, you know, I'm I'm like, from my experience with it, you put it in front of people and you get a sort
Duena:of reaction. Absolutely. Why wouldn't you? Because it is did what we've made, as you know, and we can talk about this multiple times, put you put this mirror, this sudden mirror in front of you going, oh my god. Now I I can't even do this human work and what they're talking about because of x y and z.
Duena:These are the things that are holding me back either I don't have the budget, time, the interest, the people, the engagement, the whatever you name it. There is something that's missing that's keeping people from doing the necessary human work. I don't have the most often the thing that's missing the most is I don't have the balls, don't have the courage, I don't have the liberty with each other, I don't have the team with the psychological safety and implicitly the culture that's healthy enough. We know all that, right? Everyone knows all that.
Duena:There's literally maybe a total of a 100 words to know so that you can turn around any big enterprise. It's not about the names. It's about the willingness, the courage, the teams, the amount of people that can make it happen, right? And you know some of those, I know some of those but we also know you don't genuinely become what I call a superhero or a human work advocate until it lands and two things need to land. Yeah?
Duena:Agile does need to land. But I'll tell you something, agile never lands at DNA level until you as a person, and this I hope I'm wrong on this position, have done the necessary internal growing and human work. The more of a grown up one is, the more at peace with who they are, the more in touch with their feelings, more understanding of their self, others and themselves in self awareness. The more acute people are, the more likely it is they can understand agile. And I've said this over and over again, if we want people it's a beautiful feeding circle if you wish.
Duena:We want people to be agile, we want them to have done this human work on themselves to where they are acute enough, to where they care enough, to where they understand while the heart of agile is this human work, this collaboration. Just call it whatever Alister wants to call it because I'll take his word over mine any day. Clearly, so will you.
Dave:Yep. Absolutely. So, yeah, an interesting weekend. Last weekend. Let's hope we can have another interesting weekend.
Duena:Let's hope not because your nose needs to remain unbroken.
Dave:Okay.
Duena:Otherwise, the viewers can pay
Dave:for it. Week this weekend, I'm meeting yeah. Technique culture. Are you covered? No.
Dave:Not cover to cover, but word file to word file.
Duena:One by one by one? One by one by one. Excellent. Let's see it happening. Boom.
Dave:Yeah. Boom.
Duena:And the other weekend, all of you, let me tell you, all all gods, meanwhile, it would have happened already, but the other episodes are going to be filmed from paradise. We're taking the show on the road right away. We haven't even started for five minutes, but we're getting on the road. We're gonna hit the waves of Lanzarote. Lanzarote.
Duena:We're going to a pizza. No. We're going to Spain.
Dave:Venga boys never had a song about going to Lanzarote.
Duena:It wasn't as trendy in their time. Yeah. Anyways, have an amazing vacation if you're listening this to this on that vacation. Put it down right away. Absolutely don't listen.
Duena:Relax.
Dave:Yeah. Read a book.
Duena:Maybe over Christmas. You can listen over Christmas. If you're listening to this over Christmas remember you can go to the beach like we did. You can do these stand ups on by the beach like we did. You can talk about all of this stuff and still go salsa dancing unless already they've closed the place.
Duena:We'll see. Anyways all the best everybody bye.
